Were there 2 arsenals that made the Hungarian M44?

[fullchoke]

I've been trying to find out why I have a Hungarian M44 (also known as 48M) without any circle B markings, and where many things are different, but still Hungarian, and marked 02. The stock is not marked 02, but is Hungarian, by the front sling escutcheon placement.
I have thought there might be another arsenal, that blued some things, and not others that the Budapest arsenal (circle B) would have done. The barrel shank on the Budapest circle B has fine machining marks, where this rifle's barrel shank is polished. I also thought that if there was only 1 arsenal, why the circle B mark if everything was made there anyway.
I have heard about the Romanian arsenal that refurbed Hungarian rifles before export, but I think this rifle was not refurbed. I can't find any mention of a second arsenal in Hungary, only the Budapest.
Thanks

[qz2026]

As far as I know there was only one armory in Hungry that manufactured these rifles in Budapest. What came out of Cugir, Romania were Balkan M-44's (and other types of Mosins and other weapons) that were refurbished. In most cases what resulted from the Romanian refurbishments were minimal to say the least. There was no concern about matching numbers or even stocks. You can find parts from just about any kind of Mosins on these M-44's from Russian to Romanian to Polish even Chinese and, of course, Hungarian. That said, you can find many matching examples if you look hard enough. I've had several in the past. They did ensure that the guns were safe to shoot however. Their refurbishments came no where near what the Russians did. Personally, I really like the Cugir refurbs. The only issues is to be sure that you find one with a good bore.

[fullchoke]

I have read about rifles that went through Cugir, Romania. Everyone I've found posts on was a mis-match. This rifle does have an EP'ed bolt, but it is a new 02 marked bolt. The stock is newer looking, without the 02, and Circle B, but has the forward sling escutcheon placement, like a Hungarian. The handguard ends are in the white, and so are the sling escutcheons, and crossbolt. The barrel shank is polished, unlike the Budapest barrel shank. The bolt head lug is marked 02, but the top that you see with the bolt closed, which is marked 02, is blued, on this rifle. I haven't seen that on Romanian M44's or Budapest Hungarian M44's either, but my research has been limited to only a couple of rifles, in person, otherwise it is only pictures I have seen to go by, including the showcase here.
It occurred to me that why would Budapest mark their rifle stocks, and barrel shanks with the prominent circle B if they were not marking them to distinguish them from another arsenal? Were any barrels made in Budapest in 1953 (the date on this rifle) not marked B in a circle? And were those unmarked Budapest barrel shanks polished? I'm thinking there was probably another arsenal that was small in Hungary, but only because of this rifle.
Thanks

[qz2026]

he top that you see with the bolt closed, which is marked 02, is blued, on this rifle

I have no idea what you are talking about. From your description this sounds like the firing pin. As far as I know, those were never blued. The entire bolt group was in the white.

"02" is the Warsaw Pact assigned Country Code for Hungry. They used this on all "marked" parts on these carbines and there a ton of these. The Circle B indicates the place of Manufacture, i.e. Budapest. There can be other stampings on the gun but those are likely only for QC purposes.

If a stock does not have the 02 and Circle B stamp on the left side of the butt stock, then it is likely not a Hungarian stock but a replacement (as in your case). Dead giveaway that it came from Cugir. Yeah, they could have had "blank" Hungarian stocks laying around but I doubt it. It could be a sanded or worn Romanian stock, a Russian stock, a Polish stock or even a Chinese stock. I've seen them all. The real giveaways of Cugir refurbished guns are, mismatched parts that can come from any country that manufactures Mosins, typically a lack of a cleaning rod, a stock with little or not finish remaining (original condition). You will also see a large number of these guns with no bluing remaining on the originally blued parts (my favorites). The bluing either wore off or was removed by the country who was using the rifles. The EP'd bolt is something they did in later refurbishments, probably copying and/or appeasing the Russians. The Romanians refurbs couldn't give a rip if the s/n's matched. Their goal was to make sure the guns was serviceable. You have to know Romanians to love them. Occasionally a fully matching gun might surface but that is very rare.

Here are the matching points for the Hungarian M-44. The 02 was on the top of the butt plate too. I don't think I had a picture of this with this collection of photos. If your Hungarian does not have all of these stampings (and a Hungarian stock) then it isn't original. It's a Cugir refurb. I don't recall seeing barrels with a Circle B stamp before. Not sure what you are referring to.

3 - Numbered Parts.jpg

Hungarian Parts.jpg

IMG_7801.JPG

[fullchoke]

Thanks for your response. As far as I know, only the Hungarian stocks had the escutcheons about an inch closer to the receiver. This rifle has those escutcheons like other Hungarian stocks, but the 02 mark is not on the stock. There are no marks, or numbers of any kind on the stock. All parts that I can see without dismantling the rifle are 02 marked. The barrel bands, rear sight, bolt, barrel shank, floor plate, and butt plate. All numbers found match. The ep'ed bolt also matches. Your statement that the Romanians didn't care much about matching numbers, is something I also have read, but someone cared to ep the bolt. They also blued that part, I failed to describe to you well enough. I will try to get a picture.
My experience with Romanian Mosin's is they never had a cleaning rod, until they arrive in civilian hands here. I think it's becoming more accepted that the Balkan labeled rifles are really Romanian rifles, as they too have no cleaning rod. I'm thinking they used a pull through instead. Hungarian rifles also originally didn't come with cleaning rods, from what I have learned reading hundreds of posts about them. With the corrosive ammo used, cleaning would have been required often, and that steel rod would not have been good for the bore if used from the muzzle.
Thanks

DSCN1692.JPG

[qz2026]

My experience with Romanian Mosin's is they never had a cleaning rod, until they arrive in civilian hands here. I think it's becoming more accepted that the Balkan labeled rifles are really Romanian rifles, as they too have no cleaning rod. I'm thinking they used a pull through instead. Hungarian rifles also originally didn't come with cleaning rods, from what I have learned reading hundreds of posts about them. With the corrosive ammo used, cleaning would have been required often, and that steel rod would not have been good for the bore if used from the muzzle

I think that you have to beware of much that you read in forums. The only Hungarian or any of M-44's including T-53's that showed up without cleaning rods appear to me were removed either where they were actually used or by the importers, in most cases Century. But, I suspect they were removed in the countries they were used in. Without a doubt M-44's used in the Balkans that went through Cugir did not have cleaning rods. And truthfully, I can only speculate the reasons why. I suspect that with all Mosins, the cleaning rods were not used as often as the manufacturers intended since none are really long enough to go through the length of the bore. This is true of Russian 91/30's as well.

As far as cleaning rod use there is good reason to believe that much of the muzzle corrosion was caused by the use of the steel cleaning rods. With that said I don't subscribe to the thought that the soldiers actually made the decision themselves to discard the cleaning rod. This would be a decision that higher ups in the food chain of a particular unit would make. And, really, with the only "less than stellar" bores I have seen, the corrosion is not limited to the muzzle (unlike the Russian examples). The corrosion tends to extend the length of the bore. With the Russian examples much of the corrosion was limited to the muzzle which necessitated counterboring during refurbishment in Russia and by the Finns.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say Romanian Mosins. Romanian manufactured rifles all had cleaning rods. The same is true for the Hungarian Mosins, as evidenced the picture I sent with an 02 stamped on the cleaning rod. It is true, however, that those Mosins received (including 91/30's) from Romania (Cugir refurbs often called the Romanian hoard) did not have the cleaning rods. But, those Romanian M-44's originally manufactured at Cugir all had cleaning rods. The same is true for the Hungarian manufactured M-44's. In my time collecting I have had over 50 of these Eastern European M-44's ranging from those refurbished in Romania to virtually unissued carbines. Those that I considered "unissued" all had cleaning rods/

I am unaware of different sling slot locations in the butt stocks. It never occurred to me to measure them. As for the blued firing pin, yours is the first I have ever seen that appears to have been blued. I have no explanation for that. Certainly they were manufactured with bright and polished metal from the factory.

[fullchoke]

qz2026, You don't need to measure the sling slot location, you can notice it just by looking at it. It is positioned halfway between the barrel bands on the Hungarians, and only found like that on the Hungarians, as far as I have seen. If you have a Hungarian with it closer to the muzzle like every other maker of M44's, it was likely refurbed with a replacement stock in Cugir.
With the thought of most if not all Hungarian M44's being imported here through Cugir, Romania, that may have been the location for the removal of the cleaning rods. I'm acutely aware that the internet forums are not near 100% accurate, but I have seen so many times where someone says that they just got hold of a mint, or unissued Hungarian, with only the cleaning rod missing, which they proclaim should be easy to replace. I have also seen where someone has a box full of 02 marked cleaning rods they are selling. I have no doubt the rifles(Romanian, and Hungarian) were built with a cleaning rod, but somewhere, in the command chain came the order to remove them. I don't see Polish, or Russian rifles missing the cleaning rod with near the frequency, of Romanian or Hungarian. Why would CAI remove only Romanian, or Hungarian cleaning rods and leave them in others? It seems less than likely. I'm not replacing the cleaning rod on mine, because I believe these 2 countries purposely removed them and if a M44 from one of these countries has one someone here wanted to complete their unissued rifle.
I have not handled or owned very many of these rifles like you have, and still have much to learn, and I'm looking through over 2200 posts here in my spare time. So far I have only seen 1 rifle that looked like this rifle with the blued firing pin cam/lug. It was a matching numbered rifle, with a plain Hungarian stock, but I think I saw it on Gunbroker, and can't find it now. I saw it when I wasn't looking for it...naturally, but thought at the time, look at that, it's just like mine.
When I say Romanian Mosins, I mean all of them, M91's etc. I've seen a picture from the 1950's with a bunch of Romanian soldiers in the field, and their M91 Mosin's were without cleaning rods. Mosin's that went to the SCW don't have cleaning rods either, and they came through Romania to Spain, from Russia as I understand it.
I haven't posted here enough, so my posts need to be reviewed, and approved. That can mean a delay in my answers.
Thanks

[qz2026]

Want to see some really nice Romanian rifles you must go to the military arms museum in Bucharest. The first thing you see when you walk in the door are three or four stacked M-91's in the lobby. I must have looked funny on my hands and knees trying to check out the shank stampings They have some amazing and rare guns all in excellent condition. I seriously debated going up to Cugir to get more information on what they did with the rifles they manufactured and refurbished. But, it's a hundreds of miles train trip to the middle of nowhere and later I found out that you can only visit there if you have approval from someplace in Bucharest, so I never went. I even tried writing them but got no response.

Actually when I refer to Romanian rifles, I really am referring to the Cugir refurbs. I've had pristine and fully matching Romanian and Hungarian M-44's as well as T-53 examples, but the Cugir refurbs are my favorites. Non matching, bluing gone, no cleaning rods and stocks with no shiny stuff on them. And believe it or not, most of the bores on these guns were very nice - virtually pristine. I sold almost my entire collection of Milsurps but kept a 1944 Izhevsk and a 1945 with a Hex receiver both Cugir refurbs. The only Russian carbine I kept was a 1920 Tula RFSFR 91/59 (uber rare - I think this one is in the showcase or I posted it separately) and a non matching 1943 91/59 that I kept for a shooter.

Why would CAI remove only Romanian, or Hungarian cleaning rods and leave them in others?

Why would CIA do some of the weird things they did is the real question. But, as I said, the cleaning rods were like removed long before CIA got their hands on them.

If you have a Hungarian with it closer to the muzzle like every other maker of M44's, it was likely refurbed with a replacement stock in Cugir.

It's also possible that Cugir cut down some spare 91/30 stocks and cut the sling slots in afterwards which might account for the location of the escutcheons. This is what the Russians did with many of the 91/38's and 91/59's.

[fullchoke]

Thanks again qz2026 for your response! I have quite a few Mosin's in my collection of firearms. I collected them because my son likes everything Russian. I would get them because he liked them, and they were cheap. Now I have become more interested in what I have, and found the history of the Mosin rifle, more complex than any other. Not to say that other rifles don't have a complex history, but Russia is a country with a long history of war, and for about 130 years the Mosin has been heavily involved. Every Mosin I pick up has something interesting about it. I have a Romanian M44 with a well worn unrefurbed look to it, and it is all stamped matching. But it has a 02 marked rear sight. Your answers about this Hungarian, make that oddity understandable. I find the mysteries with a rifle interesting, but prefer them solved at least to a degree of certainty over just likely. This rifle I feel is up against the odds for a refurb in Cugir because of all the Hungarian parts being 100% so far.
Another thing I recently noticed that is puzzling is it has 3 bands on the barrel shank that are more heavily polished than the rest on the shank. It is like something small was polished off, or the polishing was very uneven. I notice nothing missing. It is most noticeable by touch. These bands go across the shank like they were lightly machined off, then polished, as opposed to spot polished. I have a different Hungarian M44 that is a Budapest rifle, 02 circle B stock. Also a 1953 rifle, BD prefix, matching. This rifle is a 1953 CA prefix. The barrel shanks have substantial differences. As mentioned this rifle has a polished shank, the Budapest is not polished. The stampings are in the same order, but this rifle is stamped much closer to the muzzle with different spacing, where the Budapest made rifle is stamped close to the receiver. I don't know how much variation to expect, but it is very noticeable between these 2 rifles. All these differences have lead me to think there was possibly a 2nd smaller arsenal that also built M44's.
Thanks

[qz2026]

These could be field repairs as well.

One thing about Mosins is that you can expect anything. And when you think you have seen it all, something different always pops up. When you are able to post pick, we can pick this up again.

[fullchoke]

20220410_232601.jpg

20220410_232538.jpg

What I noticed while taking these pictures is that the polished areas looks like something was removed, possibly a crest between the 02 and the date. It seems more than likely that this barrel came from another country before the Hungarian arsenal polished the shank to remove it and stamp it as 1953, 02, and serial. I have no way of knowing how many were built like this, but this was not a one off rifle, and explains why, and how I saw another like this one. Although while it looked like this one, I don't remember looking at the barrel shank to see the placement of the script. The large picture of the shank brings out the area better where the crest was ground, making it noticeable better than looking at it in person. Have any ideas what crest it could have been?
Thanks

[fullchoke]

I tried to take the picture with the rifles side by side, but could not get the glare off them both at the same time. Of course the lower picture is the polished shank M44, and the upper is the Budapest (circle B) M44 rifle.

[qz2026]

Looks like something was scrubbed but there is the appropriate crest on the shank. As I recall, this was the first year of production. I'm not even sure if they manufactured these after 1953. Out of the 15 or so that I owned, they were all 1953's. So if a 1954 or later was manufactured, I never found one. Who knows, your barrel could have been a prototype or very early production. Or it's even possible that something incorrect was stamped or there was an accident which required cleaning up the barrel. This is exactly like the 53's that I had but mine didn't have that possible scrub mark,.

[fullchoke]

From what I have found online is Hungary purchased the license from Russia to build M44's. They did so in 1952, and 1953, about 80k each year. The CA prefix on this rifle would have been the last in 1953 considering the alphabet progression. Being one the last built, possibly some of the blems were corrected with the last rifles.
Are you saying of the 15 rifles you have owned were exactly like which one? The top picture is like the typical Hungarian M44 with the stamped 02, and circle B stamps on the stock, blued crossbolt, blued sling escutcheons, blued handguard ends, and no polishing on the barrel shank. The rifle in question in the lower picture doesn't have any of those parts blued like the rifle with the barrel shank in the top picture. The big difference shown in the barrel shank pictures are the different locations of all the markings because of the scrubbing, and the scrubbing itself. Did you see random differences in the location on the shank of those markings? By that I mean the varying location, not the order they were stamped from top to bottom.
Unless other rifles turn up like this odd example it isn't possible to draw any conclusions. Possibly it was a Hungarian refurb, before that work was done in Cugir, Romania. That would better explain all of the Hungarian parts when a refurb was done in country, possibly right after the 1956 uprising/revolution?

[qz2026]

All my shanks are the same. 02, Date, Crest, S.N. in that order going from top to bottom. including the witness marks. All the stamping will not be in the exact locations from one rifle to the other. In other words a stamped crest from one rifle to the other my vary in location by a mm or so. After all, they were hand stamped. I believe that the machining was also provided to Hungary and other countries who manufactured the M-44's.

I never payed much attention to the prefixes. There is a guy on the forum, I forget his name, that has all the prefixes and dates in tabular form. I have no idea what the mar on your shank is. I would probably lean away from declaring is a scrubbing...

[fullchoke]

What ever was polished off was on there top center. This suggests to me it was something applied and not a flaw. It also may not have anything to do with the rest of the rifles differences with other Budapest built rifles.
I don't know or heard of Hungarian rifles being rebuilt in Hungary, but while they were still in service there, they must have been, when needed. I'm sure Hungary would have had parts made, just for repairs. The best scenario that fits my thinking is that there was only 1 arsenal (Budapest) that originally built all the rifles, but rebuilds of broken parts like stocks, would have been done at a local depot. That would explain the lack of the 02, and circle B on a replacement stock, which is Hungarian, and the crossbolt, sling escutcheons, and handguard being in the white. This rifle was probably shipped to Romania, like my other one, as they both don't have cleaning rods. It is only that the refurb was done while still in service in Hungary. Unless I learn something different this explanation fits best.
Thanks