Ammo for 50yd deer shot?

[osyb]

EDIT: Posted this late at night and made some mistakes. Correcting them now.

Title sums it up pretty much. I've got a butt load of surplus silvertips. The average hunting shot I'll take is 50yds or less. I don't know jack about hunting but I know how to shoot. My first and only deer was a double lunger. Obviously a SP bullet would be more effective than the FMJ I have. But what about a quartering to or away type shot where I could under the best scenario get at least one lung, the heart, and take out a shoulder. The question I'd have at that point is how quickly will it bleed out or will I have to quickly finish it off with a second shot? My property line is 100yds from where the deer will be, tracking is not an option due to unfriendly neighbours. So far I've shot bulgarian 147gr surplus and 148gr TulAmmo and the surplus shoots better and closer to point of aim.

If I decide to hunt with this like I think I am, I'll have no choice but to adjust the sights. That's pretty much routine right? Wouldn't hurt the historical value too awful much? I WOULD REALLY LIKE THE GENERAL OPINION ON THIS. I WANT TO KEEP THE HISTORICAL VALUE INTACT BUT A GUN THAT DOESN'T HIT WHERE I AIM ISN'T A PROPER HUNTING TOOL. PLEASE GIVE OPINION ON ADJUSTING SIGHT WINDAGE. However, at 50yds, a red bull just over 2" in diameter is barely visible without corrected vision. I hope to be able to get glasses soon but has anyone else noticed how much this economy SUCKS!!!! I figure a tight kill zone of a deer is about 3-4" If I can place that bullet somewhere within that distance of the perfect shot, it should be a quick humane kill with little to no tracking. EVEN WITH UNALTERED SIGHTS, AT AVERAGE HUNTING DISTANCE, IN KNEELING POSITION WITHOUT CORRECTED VISION I AM STILL ABLE TO HIT IN THE KILL ZONE OF A DEER.

However, if I do decide that my uncorrected vision is keeping me from getting the groups I would like then I'm thinking of first adding optics. The whole point of this is to keep it able to be converted back to all original. So the optics mount would have to replace rear sight, I'm pretty set on S&K mosin optic mount found here - http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=2610 ... /M91-Mount but as far as the optic itself I am lost. I WOULD ALSO LIKE A BACK UP PLAN FOR AN OPTICS OPTION. I'VE HEARD GOOD THINGS ABOUT THE MOUNT BUT AM LOST ON WHAT TYPE OF OPTIC WOULD BE BEST SUITED FOR HUNTING APPLICATIONS WHILE HAVING THE ABILITY TO ADD IN NIGHT SHOOTING CAPABILITY IF NEEDED.

First, I've tried catching a deer just before dark. The only deer I've ever shot was like 3min away from official sunset. Problem is, you've spent your entire day for that one shot, soon after you have a complete adrenaline dump and you realize how hard it's going to be simply dragging the deer out of the woods after gutting it (assuming you don't have ATVs and what not) not to even mention the difficulty of cutting the deer up into somewhat manageable pieces for further cleaning, sorting, and bagging. I knew a guy who had some kind of population control permit or something that brought a deer by that was still warm at like 8 at night. He showed me all kinds of paperwork but I'd never heard of anything but it looked official and was signed not to mention it was free so I took it. I stayed at it until like 2 in the morning when I decided that I was simply too tired to be working with sharp objects. I left the sectioned off pieces in a ice cold bathtub of salt water over night and finished up everything around midnight the next day.

I have most definitely learned that a deer freezer, a meat grinder, and a vacuum sealer is a must though. I have no idea how much they will cost. The freezer is about $100 on craiglist locally but that's all I know.

As I said and from the amount of times you must've laughed at the things I did wrong, I don't know jack about harvesting meat from a recent kill. I prefer to say it that way because hunting out in the woods, that ain't my gig. I look out the back window as I'm going to the bathroom, if I see a deer, I grab the rifle, load a hunting round, step outside and fire just off the back porch.

These are the things I need to know - I'M A PERFECTIONIST WHO WANTS TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT WHAT INTERESTS ME, OFF SITE LINKS, WALK THROUGHS AND ARTICLES ARE HIGHEST PREFERRED. I LIKE YOU GUYS AND YOU SEEM TO HAVE SOME GOOD HEAD ON YOUR SHOULDERS SO I'D LIKE YOUR OPINION ON A LOT OF STUFF BUT DON'T EXPECT YOU TO ANSWER EVERY QUESTION I'D END UP HAVING -

1. I researched it all before but need to know again - gutting/field dressing a deer 101
2. Different names and types of cuts of meat. What not to do with the knife that would destroy meat.
3. How to use as much of the animal as possible. I know a lot of people are pretty wasteful, but thems a lot of doggy ribs to just be throwing away. Dogs need to eat too, I'll be sure to have a grinder. If it can be made into a pleasant tasting cut of meat, I want to use it. THIS IS PRETTY IMPORTANT TO ME, EVEN IF IT'S NOT FOOD, I DON'T LIKE TAKING A LIFE AND WOULD PREFER TO USE AS MUCH OF THAT BODY AS POSSIBLE TO HONOR THE LIFE THAT I HAVE TAKEN.
4. Different options for meat types. All I can think of are tenderloin steaks, meat cubes and strips, and then ground meat. I don't have a clue about how sausage or jerky is made but I would most surely like to find out. The jerky more than the sausage actually. Are there any other popular options I haven't heard of. THE LADY OF THE HOUSE IS A JERKY NUT BUT SHY OF DEER MEAT, DEER JERKY IS AN EXTREMELY HIGH PRIORITY!!!
5. I'll go ahead and round it out here with storage. After you got it prepared just the way you want it, what's the best way of preserving it until it's cooked. Normally that's not much of a problem since I go through it so much. Venison is like the best tasting meat on earth to me. However the economy is half way down the drain, plumber of a politician is no where in sight, I'm preparing for the worst so I'd really like to have my limit of deer filling up a freezer of mine. THE MAIN POINT OF THIS THAT I FORGOT TO MENTION IS THAT I'M LUCKIER THAN MANY AND I REALIZE THAT. I EXPECT TO MAINTAIN A STEADY AMOUNT OF VENISON MEAT ON HAND FROM NOW ON. ALTHOUGH IT WOULD SURELY MAKE MY DOG HAPPIER, IT WOULD BE BETTER SUITED GIVEN TO A FOOD SHELTER AND WHAT NOT. MAYBE BE A NICE SURPRISE IF I WAS ABLE TO PROVIDE A LITTLE VENISON SIDE MEAT FOR A THANKSGIVING MEAL FOR THE NEEDY. THIS IS PRETTY IMPORTANT TO ME AND NEED TO KNOW WHAT REGULATIONS FOOD BANKS AND SUCH HAVE ABOUT DONATED MEAT.

Two other things though, I have nothing as far as knives or saws or anything of the like. I'd like to find just a CHEAP all in one type kit or something. Either way, I need everything from bone saw to hide cutters. Need some suggestions there. Another thing I just wanted to throw out there is I'm hoping to get enough meat to last me until next year. Does anyone know what the qualifications are of donating what would be year old wild game. I figure, it a freezer, vacuum sealed with date on inner wrapper should be good enough don't you think?

I'm gonna try for 3 does. CAN ANYONE GIVE A GUESS AT HOW MUCH BAGGED MEAT I COULD GET FROM 3 AVERAGE SIZED DOES? I don't see many bucks and the ones I do see would cause buck fever for sure. I'd rather take a doe that I'm comfortable enough shooting that I can stay focused on proper shot placement. Leave the bucks for the new hunters out with the dad's making memories of a lifetime. I'm out for meat anyway. I have no idea on the average amount of cut meat a medium sized doe would produce. I'm thinking along the like of a 150-180lb doe would produce a little over 75lbs of bagged meat. That times 3 makes 225lb. Now I haven't been grocery shopping lately but I'm guessing 225lbs of dang near the healthiest meat you can get would save a pretty penny.

If nothing else, I really would like the forums personal experience with what types of accessories work the best. Like those reciprocating knives, different types of vacuum sealer's and grinders. What type of knives or kit should I get? Seeing as how she's gonna be dead I'm certain it would hurt me more to use it than it'd hurt her but what about that butt out thing? My best option for the innards are to either bury them AFTER THINKING OF THIS, IT IS NO LONGER AN OPTION. I HAVE WAY TOO MANY STRAY DOGS THAT WOULD SNIFF IT OUT IN MINUTES AND AFTER ALL THAT WORK I'M NOT GOING TO FEEL LIKE DIGGING A HOLE or purchase and absolute air tight container cheap enough to throw away the container and all DOES ANYONE HAVE A CHEAP SUGGESTION FOR THIS. I'M THINKING A CHEAP STYROFOAM BAIT BUCKET WITH ENOUGH DUCK TAPE TO SEAL THE OZONE LAYER, OPINIONS? when I dispose of the carcass.

woods1.jpg

This is basically a horribly out of scale sketch I drew on paint a long time ago it sucks but gives a general idea. The shaded green area is thick and heavy brush. The sketch does not show elevation or direction from my trailer (furthest right) to the one furthest left. The left most trailer is in a fairly deep gulley that is basically the beginning of the small creek I have. The red line drawn through the upper left part is where a previous neighbor got drunk and went for a drive in the woods on a bobcat. It's been that way for quite a while now and if the trails were kept clear, you could get from one end to the other without making a sound. Purple is the apple tree obviously and the light blue is the backstop with somewhere above 800yds of nothing but woods behind it.

I think I'm gonna make a gallery of my wooded area. I'd like y'alls opinion.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Have you tried a pair of inexpensive reading glasses from the drug store? These can help until you can afford prescription specs. At 50 yards you could chuck a rock and kill the deer, just about anyway, FMC ammunition will give you massive over penetration at that range, any of the commercial soft points would work, Wolf, Brown Bear or whatever your local gun shop has, they all work at that range. Make sure that you are legal to discharge a weapon close to a building, and I am assuming that you have a hunters license? If so then you had to take the hunters safety course. The guys probably will come on later with all sorts of tips for you, however I strongly suggest you search out a local hunter who has experience and can show you the ropes first hand, that's the easiest, and fastest way to learn. Don't take an animal until you understand how to process it's meat or you will waste it and possibly harm yourself by eating spoiled or contaminated meat. Your local gun shop could probably scare up a hunter who can help you get started, or maybe there is a training course available that can teach you basic woodscraft. Please learn how to hunt properly, a few years back a couple of boys who didn't know jack about hunting, or trekking through the woods, and who couldn't see very well mistook my friend for a deer and shot him to death as he did yard work in the backyard.

[Celt]

I got a Winchester processing kit for Christmas.not expensive.need to sharpen them though.comes with a little book for field dressing and such.I also am wanting to start hunting to supply food for my family but have never done so.I would also suggest finding an experienced hunting partner.lots to learn and many ways to make mistakes.k eep its posted

[desdem12]

OK that is quite a post. I may have a few suggestions for you. I have hunted for many many years. (although not always successful). I do however live out west where it is cooler weather during hunting season. I also hunt mule deer and not white tail so i am not sure of some of the differences. After a kill shot if you think it is a good one you should take your time in going after it to let it lay down. This will facilitate it into death faster and make it unable to get up most times. Then after finding it gutting should be performed. This is a semi easy task, unless you are old and have a bad back like me. Turn deer on back and with a sharp knife slit the skin till you can see the opening. Then take the knife and put it blade up and cut the skin as far up to the breast as you can and all the way to the butt. At the butt i use a dohickey thats name escapes me, i think it is called buttout. You stick it in the butt and turn and then pull out and then tie the intestine in a knot. a $2 or $3 item that is actualy worth it. Make sure not to cut the pee bag or the poo bag. After that roll the deer on its side and pull the guts out with your hands as much as possible. then cut at the top where they are attached and pull the rest out. Don't cut the pee bag.
Pull out the feed tube from the mouth as far as you can and cut off. after gutting pull deer out to a more better place for skinning.

[desdem12]

A good hunting knife is a must for skinning or a good skinning knife is better. I have lots of knives for this and a steel for shorpening too. I hang the deer from a tree and this point you may have different views but from working in a butcher shop when i was 12 with my dad i can tell you that the best way for me is to hang them by the head or horns and the skinning will be easier. Get it up tp a comfortable hight and then cut a ring of skin aaround the neck and then down the breast to where the dear was gutted. Starting at one of the sides seperate the skin from the meat being careful not to ct the meat, a little is ok just go back and get closer if you miss. Once started and you have enough for a good grip you can pull the skin down and off the deer. You may need to help it out every now and then with the knife on tough spots. I forgot to tell you back at the start that you should cut off the back legs at the tendon or joint as they have glands there that should be removed so as not to taste the meat. I cut off all legs at the knee joints. Skining the legs is a little more difficult but doing is learning.

[desdem12]

At this point i hang the deer for a week or so after putting in a game bag. You may not be able to do this if the temperature is too high.
By this point you should have a freezer and plugged in getting cold. If you are poor like me walmart has cheap freezers in store or you can site to store one for not too much. Another thing, while skinning you will need to constantly shorpen your knife with the steel or have a helper to pass another knife while they steel up the other one. Now that the deer is ready for cutting you will need an array of knives that will maike it easier. If you have a good will or store like that you might keep checking for some butcher knives and others that look like good quality and purchase when found.
The first and most important part of cutting a deer is the BACKSTRAP. I will assume you know where it is. At the top of the back on either side of the spine. Cut it as close the spine as you can. There will be 2 pieces, one on either side of the spine. After getting off you can cut this into butterfly steaks or just small steaks. I butterfly as much as possible and then i put them in foodsaver bags and freeze. A food saver is the way to go here for sure. You can get the cheap brand of vacuum and bags. The cheap vacuum works ok but the better bags work better.

[desdem12]

More later.

[bunkysdad]

I am not qualified to tell you these things, as I have only taken the gutted deer to a processor and went back when it was ready to be picked up, already butcher paper wrapped and frozen. The problem is that is too expensive for what you are wanting to do, about 75 bucks per animal, give or take.
What I can tell you is that you need a performance bullet designed for a quick humane kill. Leave the full metal jackets for target shooting, plinking, or varmint hunting. They don't expand and it is likely to over-penetrate even punching through the other side. You don't get proper energy (shock trauma) and besides extra money on top quality ammo is a good investment. How fast you have to cut up your deer depends of refrigeration. If it is really cold outside the dressed deer can hang longer before processing. Look for videos on all the subjects you are interested in. there are a zillion of them.

[desdem12]

Cutting up the deer or elk is more of a time consumeing venture then it is difficult. You bone the deer out and then just follow the muscle channels. If it looks like it would be good in a steak form then cut it in steaks or roasts. The rest can be ground into deer burger or cut into jerky strips. To make hamburger i use a $20 walmart electric grinder. works like a charm. Grind up the deer then mix in some pork sausage and regrind. How much sausage you mix in is up to your tastes and how fatty the sausage is. It took me a good 3 days to cut up the last deer by my self mostly.

[bunkysdad]

My friend uses a band saw and he swears by it.

[desdem12]

I used to have all that kind of stuff back in the day when my pa had a butcher shop and it is alot easier. But if you don't have one,you don't neccessarily need it. My own personal preference is to have no bones. But that i just me. If i had a bandsaw i may change my mind. I have cut up many a deer on the kitchen table and have used a number 10 hand grinder lots. Now i use a 6' folding table and a couple of tarps and bone in front of a good movie. Gone are the days of me bending or even standing at a cutting bench or table.

[osyb]

Have you tried a pair of inexpensive reading glasses from the drug store? These can help until you can afford prescription specs. At 50 yards you could chuck a rock and kill the deer, just about anyway, FMC ammunition will give you massive over penetration at that range, any of the commercial soft points would work, Wolf, Brown Bear or whatever your local gun shop has, they all work at that range. Make sure that you are legal to discharge a weapon close to a building, and I am assuming that you have a hunters license? If so then you had to take the hunters safety course. The guys probably will come on later with all sorts of tips for you, however I strongly suggest you search out a local hunter who has experience and can show you the ropes first hand, that's the easiest, and fastest way to learn. Don't take an animal until you understand how to process it's meat or you will waste it and possibly harm yourself by eating spoiled or contaminated meat. Your local gun shop could probably scare up a hunter who can help you get started, or maybe there is a training course available that can teach you basic woodscraft. Please learn how to hunt properly, a few years back a couple of boys who didn't know jack about hunting, or trekking through the woods, and who couldn't see very well mistook my friend for a deer and shot him to death as he did yard work in the backyard.

All local and state regulations are being followed. With gun hating sue crazy 'not so nice' type people living next to me. The average of a dozen or so visits from the local law enforcement has proven that for quite a while. I'm hunting on my own property and in my state hunting on your own property doesn't require a license as long as the harvest is taken within season and legal ways. I've had dozens of deer in my sights, I've only pulled the trigger once. So needless to say, I know what it takes and how important it is to pass up shots that might not end with a humane and safe kill. I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. I've often refused to go into the woods during hunting season around here for fear of drunken trigger happy idiots. The only teaching I've ever had regarding shooting was by a strict as could be and old as dirt NRA and 4H certified instructor. He taught me right so no worries there.

[osyb]

OK that is quite a post. I may have a few suggestions for you. I have hunted for many many years. (although not always successful). I do however live out west where it is cooler weather during hunting season. I also hunt mule deer and not white tail so i am not sure of some of the differences. After a kill shot if you think it is a good one you should take your time in going after it to let it lay down. This will facilitate it into death faster and make it unable to get up most times. Then after finding it gutting should be performed. This is a semi easy task, unless you are old and have a bad back like me. Turn deer on back and with a sharp knife slit the skin till you can see the opening. Then take the knife and put it blade up and cut the skin as far up to the breast as you can and all the way to the butt. At the butt i use a dohickey thats name escapes me, i think it is called buttout. You stick it in the butt and turn and then pull out and then tie the intestine in a knot. a $2 or $3 item that is actualy worth it. Make sure not to cut the pee bag or the poo bag. After that roll the deer on its side and pull the guts out with your hands as much as possible. then cut at the top where they are attached and pull the rest out. Don't cut the pee bag.
Pull out the feed tube from the mouth as far as you can and cut off. after gutting pull deer out to a more better place for skinning.

Everything I know about hunting was taught by an idiot that believed taking a 100yd shot at a partially visible 10pt buck with a 22 was the natural thing to do. Obviously I know better than that. But he did know some tricks. Like shoot then listen. Fire the shot, if the deer is laying there dead then no tracking is needed. But most likely the deer won't be and be heading through the woods. At full speed, deer can go through the thickest woods without making a sound. But when you start hearing something like a train crash in the middle of the woods, you know that deer is down. As a general rule, it would take me about a half hour after that to gather up all the equipment needed to gut and haul the deer out of the woods. I know that even a half dead deer can get spooked and run further than you want to track. You say gutting is a semi easy task unless you're old and that's not completely true. Laugh at me all you want, I honestly could not finish gutting the doe I shot. My own mother had to go out and do it for me. I'm way more squeamish than the typical outdoorsman. Question though, on the doe I shot, I went out assuming that I would be able to easily find something to hold the deer in place for gutting. I couldn't for the life of me. I don't want to be lugging out a bunch of big rocks or anything, does anyone have any ideas of things to hold the deer in place that doesn't weigh a ton. There's a billion dollar idea if I ever heard one - a lightweight, foldable, and adjustable gutting mat designed to hold a deer in place to make gutting easier. Attachable and adjustable battery powered lights would be an awesome addition. Double your order and only pay separate shipping and handling. LOL As for the actual cutting, to me a knife is a knife. The most hunting type knife I've ever had was a Lakota semi serrated blade that was like 4-5 inches long and came with a belt loop sheath. Sharp as god knows what too. Lost the dang thing some time after last season. I realize though that just like guns, there's no one perfect do it all type knife. I've tried those razor blade hide rippers that absolutely suck. So I'm not going that way again. So cutting the initial cut in the hide needs to be careful not to puncture the inner parts. For that type of situation I would think about a 3" non folding knife with a very sharp non serrated blade would be nice. It would also need to be really strong since this type of knife would be what I'd want to use for the majority of the skinning. I actually mentioned that buttout thing in my original post. Gonna give me some awfully painful thoughts whenever I get a prostate exam but does it do a fairy decent job? Dumb question ahead - Obviously the name pee bag and poo bag is self explanatory, however I do not know what one looks like, any help?

[osyb]

At this point i hang the deer for a week or so after putting in a game bag. You may not be able to do this if the temperature is too high.
By this point you should have a freezer and plugged in getting cold. If you are poor like me walmart has cheap freezers in store or you can site to store one for not too much. Another thing, while skinning you will need to constantly shorpen your knife with the steel or have a helper to pass another knife while they steel up the other one. Now that the deer is ready for cutting you will need an array of knives that will maike it easier. If you have a good will or store like that you might keep checking for some butcher knives and others that look like good quality and purchase when found.
The first and most important part of cutting a deer is the BACKSTRAP. I will assume you know where it is. At the top of the back on either side of the spine. Cut it as close the spine as you can. There will be 2 pieces, one on either side of the spine. After getting off you can cut this into butterfly steaks or just small steaks. I butterfly as much as possible and then i put them in foodsaver bags and freeze. A food saver is the way to go here for sure. You can get the cheap brand of vacuum and bags. The cheap vacuum works ok but the better bags work better.

I'm about brain dead and recent history has proven it's not a good idea to post when half asleep. However, I did want to mention that obviously to prepare a deer for the freezer, knives and many of them are needed. I know enough about sharpening knives that if I have a sharpening stone in one hand and a knife in the other, I'm gonna end up with a really wide screwdriver by the end of the day. I know angles are very important in sharpening. I know the angle for skinning would be very different from the angle of an ax head. I know of no way to consistently, repeatedly, and EASILY achieve the correct angle for the job. I also know enough about metal to know that some are able to be reformed easier than others. I assume stainless steel is the preferred metal, but what about specific types of metal. Any I should shy away from, look for, or does it even matter? As for backstrap, I would use backstraplover as my standard user name but it's too popular to depend on. Needless to say, there hasn't been a single moment in my life when I would turn down a fine cut of venison tenderloin cooked to perfection.

[osyb]

At this point I'm too tired to continue posting. I apologize for not responding sooner. I don't want to complain but I've been sick enough to be bedridden most of the day. I will get back to responding to any other comments as soon as I'm able. Last night I attempted to create a gallery. Just too much work for being that tired. I'll try attaching a few of the more revealing pics in this post. I really appreciate all you guys help. I also appreciate being able to find a forum that isn't filled with 'less than desirable' type people. Great site, great people, you guys rock!

[Junk Yard Dog]

Got neighbors from the ol' asshole brigade? Join the club, I have a county full of them.

[osyb]

Yeah funny thing, had that backstop there a good 4-5 years without a single complaint. About 6mo after they move in I'm getting arrested for brandishing a firearm. Went to court and every single part of each of their stories were completely different. Got thrown out. Now they've sunken to the level of only calling the cops over when I'm trying to entertain friends during which times I keep shooting to a minimum. Oh and they've also been known to fire off those motar type fireworks that blast a shell a couple hundred feet into the air and explodes, yeah they were shooting those off at 2am the other night. In case you were sure, yeah those types of pyrotechnics are strictly forbidden in Virginia. Bottle rockets equal instant bracelets around here. Having enough of those things that they probably average firing 10 or so a month and well into the triple digits on july 4 should have the ATF busting down their door. Problem is, the a holes son is actually a deputy for the next county over. I'm pretty dang sure it wouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to listen for incoming calls to their address. Another problem is that you could literally shoot an arrow across the county line. Average response time is 45min or more. a life or death someone's about to die type call might get a car there within 20min at best. It just doesn't do any good to call them. I've gotten to the point where I don't really give a crap any more. The parents of the kids who live close by that have been dealing with their child crying and not willing to go to sleep because of the noise for hours on end are likely to go postal though. The man lived here about 30yrs ago, he all but got chased out of town by a mob with pitchforks and torches. Okay maybe not that bad but it was well known that he did not have many friends.

He moved back after his mother died who apparently left him the house. The next day he had two brand new fat boy harley davidsons in the driveway. Apparently if you live in the middle of no where in some southern town and you drive a harley, you've got friends. Even if they can't stand you, I guess they can at least like your bike. I dunno. Either way, with fireworks going off at 2am concerts going on past midnight, motorcycles roaring in and out nearly non stop 24/7, they're well on their way to having a mob coming after them again. Unless it affects me, I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the entertainment.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I can't say on a public forum what would happen if that was going on next door to me.

[osyb]

I can't say on a public forum what would happen if that was going on next door to me.

Luckily fantasies are not illegal and cannot be controlled. I fantasize about them a lot during those times. lol

[Junk Yard Dog]

This is the scrap business, no fantasy's involved, we are a somewhat rough crowd.