Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
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Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
So yesterday I posted This thread asking for help identifying a scoring that circled the end of the barrel of a Mosin Nagant carbine I had just purchased at a gun show. This led to much confusion, as it seemed as though the scoring and mark near the end of it indicated that it was the barrel of an M44 that had it's bayonet attachment removed. It also has an incorrect date that has been machined in over an almost completely worn away date. A few suggested that it might be a 91/38; however, it has the sight ring of an M38 and lacks the proper Czech marking on the receiver, so that seems to rule that option out. The stock lacks a bayonet groove, which points to it being that of a M38 stock.
I've included a picture album of most of the gun, as well as all of the markings I could find on it. There seem to be a few on the stock that I couldn't capture, as they were so worn away. There are also no markings on the top of the tang. If anyone has any idea of what type of Mosin Nagant this carbine actually is, that would be fantastic. At the end of the day, it's still a gorgeous gun and one I plan on cleaning up and putting rounds through, but knowing what it is would be a plus.
One side
Other side
What I assume are Import marks
Barrel Shank markings indicate it to be a later model Izhevsk (note the date that was added later over the faded out one)
Comparison of other dating engravings vs mine (credit to NLMosin for image)
Markings on right side of barrel shank. Cant tell what the top one is, bottom is a circle 8
Markings on left side of barrel shank. Here you have the firing proof and a half worn-away mark that looks like a circle with a symbol in it. Only a > is visible inside the circle.
Former bayonet ring and crosspin marking
Another picture of the ring
Top of the rear sight
Side of the rear sight
Front of front sight
Side of front sight
Down both sights
Rear of cocking knob
Izhevsk Arrow on top of cocking knob
Underside numbers
Izhevsk Arrow on the underside
Strange markings on the stock
Faded markings on the stock, possibly an H inside
Faded markings on the inside of the right stock groove. One is some circled Cyrillic that looks kind of like an H
Faded markings on the inside of the left stock groove. There is also the same 3Ɛ marking as the stock and some uncircled Cyrillic lettering
Buttstock lettering
Number right above butt of gun
I've included a picture album of most of the gun, as well as all of the markings I could find on it. There seem to be a few on the stock that I couldn't capture, as they were so worn away. There are also no markings on the top of the tang. If anyone has any idea of what type of Mosin Nagant this carbine actually is, that would be fantastic. At the end of the day, it's still a gorgeous gun and one I plan on cleaning up and putting rounds through, but knowing what it is would be a plus.
One side
Other side
What I assume are Import marks
Barrel Shank markings indicate it to be a later model Izhevsk (note the date that was added later over the faded out one)
Comparison of other dating engravings vs mine (credit to NLMosin for image)
Markings on right side of barrel shank. Cant tell what the top one is, bottom is a circle 8
Markings on left side of barrel shank. Here you have the firing proof and a half worn-away mark that looks like a circle with a symbol in it. Only a > is visible inside the circle.
Former bayonet ring and crosspin marking
Another picture of the ring
Top of the rear sight
Side of the rear sight
Front of front sight
Side of front sight
Down both sights
Rear of cocking knob
Izhevsk Arrow on top of cocking knob
Underside numbers
Izhevsk Arrow on the underside
Strange markings on the stock
Faded markings on the stock, possibly an H inside
Faded markings on the inside of the right stock groove. One is some circled Cyrillic that looks kind of like an H
Faded markings on the inside of the left stock groove. There is also the same 3Ɛ marking as the stock and some uncircled Cyrillic lettering
Buttstock lettering
Number right above butt of gun
- Junk Yard Dog
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
The stock looks like a typical Soviet refurb, the metal is not refinished, that interesting repair to the sight, no import mark? Could be something that was built from parts. Year range is a bit late for SCW but not for Korea or Vietnam.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
Looks like the bolt was "blued" at one time.....Well, painted black. Same as the rest of the rifle.
Was a M44 at one time and the bayonet mount was removed and the pin hole filled in.
Wrong font on serial number for a 1939?
Carbine rear site.
Miss matched serial numbers
Sure was put together from parts, that's for sure. Completely painted black. That is not common. Arsenals used black paint to "touch up" area. Don't recall a completely painted rifle.
Who knows who and when it was all done and why.
Dolk
Was a M44 at one time and the bayonet mount was removed and the pin hole filled in.
Wrong font on serial number for a 1939?
Carbine rear site.
Miss matched serial numbers
Sure was put together from parts, that's for sure. Completely painted black. That is not common. Arsenals used black paint to "touch up" area. Don't recall a completely painted rifle.
Who knows who and when it was all done and why.
Dolk
Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
Have you had it out of the stock and looked at the date on the bottom of the tang?
Interesting carbine.
Interesting carbine.
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
What's the repair to the sight?Junk Yard Dog wrote:The stock looks like a typical Soviet refurb, the metal is not refinished, that interesting repair to the sight, no import mark? Could be something that was built from parts. Year range is a bit late for SCW but not for Korea or Vietnam.
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
Well, clearly 1939 isnt the proper date on the receiver, but seems like it's still mismatched. Kinda neat though, I like the mystery of it. May not be a collector's piece like I hoped (was going to fix it up and trade it towards a 91/30 PU), but I'm still happy with it. I'll just keep it around as my fun gun.dolk wrote:Looks like the bolt was "blued" at one time.....Well, painted black. Same as the rest of the rifle.
Was a M44 at one time and the bayonet mount was removed and the pin hole filled in.
Wrong font on serial number for a 1939?
Carbine rear site.
Miss matched serial numbers
Sure was put together from parts, that's for sure. Completely painted black. That is not common. Arsenals used black paint to "touch up" area. Don't recall a completely painted rifle.
Who knows who and when it was all done and why.
Dolk
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
Gonna do that once I have the time to maintenance the gun (needs some cleaning before I can fire, bore is all gunked, there's some rust, etc)B24 wrote:Have you had it out of the stock and looked at the date on the bottom of the tang?
Interesting carbine.
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
Partway down the page is,an m38 with the same front sight as yours.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareM38s.htm
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareM38s.htm
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.
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- Darryl
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
The problem is, you have really nothing to compare it to. Two rifles are not enough to say what and when this happened to the rifle.SA1911a1 wrote:So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.
For me, if it weren't painted and especially the bolt, I'd be more comfortable with it. But the Russians never painted the bolts (nor blued them). Only the Finns Blued" bolts, but didn't paint them.
I just don't know enough to be comfortable with commenting on the rifle at all.
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
Good news would certainly be nice, and the lack of any foreign markings makes me think/hope that it's a legitimate unaltered (other than the original Frankenstein refurb) gun. However, as the other poster pointed out, painting the gun wasn't a practiced method, which throws it all offSA1911a1 wrote:So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
M-44/38. The date is fairly new(not brand new) or it would have the same pitting as the rest. Find the origin of the rear sight screw and manufacture of the black paint. That should be easy.SA1911a1 wrote:So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.
" There are two kinds of people, the good people and the ones that aggravate the hell out of the good people"
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
How do I go about doing that?steelbuttplate wrote:M-44/38. The date is fairly new(not brand new) or it would have the same pitting as the rest. Find the origin of the rear sight screw and manufacture of the black paint. That should be easy.SA1911a1 wrote:So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
That would be the screw someone stuck in the hole were the pin holding the rear sight slider should be. This is what is sometimes called a field expedient repair, soldier is lazy and poorly supervised, allows rear sight ladder to rust in place so the pin snaps off when he heeds to open it. In a panic caused by having a near useless weapon when something very bad is about to happen that will require the weapon be usable or soldier be soon dead he finds whatever will fit in the pin hole to fix it. I am surprised it's not a bent rusty nail. This is not the sort of thing you would see on weapons used by the Red Army, they had a well organized repair operation going and broken weapons were repaired or replaced, supervision of soldiers care of the weapons was tight. In the Red Army that rifle was the property of the state and you would do better to step in front of a speeding bus than have to explain to the NKVD why your negligence caused damage to the states property. Things were less formal among the buffer states army's and their reserve units, and even more relaxed among some of the client state forces like the VC during the Vietnam conflict. So when you see shit like that done to a rifle you start to get an idea were to look for it's former users.ScribeSlendy wrote:What's the repair to the sight?Junk Yard Dog wrote:The stock looks like a typical Soviet refurb, the metal is not refinished, that interesting repair to the sight, no import mark? Could be something that was built from parts. Year range is a bit late for SCW but not for Korea or Vietnam.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
You don't, he is busting your balls. The black paint was used extensively on the other side of the Iron Curtain to hide any number of bluing sins, cheap and effective in the short run.ScribeSlendy wrote:How do I go about doing that?steelbuttplate wrote:M-44/38. The date is fairly new(not brand new) or it would have the same pitting as the rest. Find the origin of the rear sight screw and manufacture of the black paint. That should be easy.SA1911a1 wrote:So the consensus is that it is an oddball legitimate M-38? That would certainly be good news for the OP.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
The screw, and No import marks?... And corrosion, different font,looks very VC, is there excessive wear at the lower end(toe) of the buttstock?
" There are two kinds of people, the good people and the ones that aggravate the hell out of the good people"
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
I wouldn't say excessive wear. The paint is worn off from shouldering, but it's not any more worn than the rest of the riflesteelbuttplate wrote:The screw, and No import marks?... And corrosion, different font,looks very VC, is there excessive wear at the lower end(toe) of the buttstock?
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
Except, this rifle is completly painted at one time. Right down to the bolt. No one did that. Touch up yes. I've seen as much as the entire barrel shank. But never the entire rifle including the bolt.Junk Yard Dog wrote:The black paint was used extensively on the other side of the Iron Curtain to hide any number of bluing sins, cheap and effective in the short run.
That is completely different.
Dolk
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
The British did that except they did it as the actual rifle finish, not touch up. The commies used it to hide stuff, rust, bad blue, and so on.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: Can Someone Help Me ID This Carbine? (Thought It Was An M38, Now Not Sure)
This certainly is an interesting piece I have on my hands. If anything, should get some interesting conversation going (like it is here)