Has this gun been bubba'd?

[Yank12]

Hey everyone,

This question is the primary reason of why I joined so I thought Id just get right to it:

I bought an Ishveck m91/30 today while looking for a more modern bolt action to target shoot with. I'm not sure why I bought this Mosin when I had a beautiful Remington 700 in my other hand, but it is what it is.... This is my second Mosin and I very quickly noticed some differences between both rifles. I do not shoot my original, I know they are inexpensive but I value it extremely as a piece of history and I don't want to put wear and tear on the gun just for my own amusement. This new rifle appeared to have been run hard and put away wet by a previous owner, which was perfect for me because I wanted something I could shoot without feeling like I was destroying historical value. However, upon further inspection at home (combined with my limited knowledge on these things) I am no longer so sure it is the bubba'd rifle I thought it was.

OK. First thing is first it is a 1943 round. The one I am comparing it to is a 1933 hex by Tula.

The color was the first thing that caught my eye...It didn't seem right. It almost seemed unfinished, or like it was finished, but has been stripped. What do you make of it?

http://imageshack.com/a/img903/60/hCUGsX.jpg

Next, the machine work seemed rough on it. Like not just "Russian Rough" but excessively rough. The receiver has lines through it that remind me of when you use too rough of sandpaper on a piece of wood, like a lot of scratches evenly spaced on a soft piece of wood. The entire barrel was the same way, and the parkerized finish seemed to be falling off/removed.

http://imageshack.com/a/img909/2973/g48twy.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img540/3164/1l5tp4.jpg

I've noticed some other odd things about the gun, but rather then make one post that takes 20 minutes for anyone to read (or 3 hours for my to type) I'll start with that and give you the rest if you want it!

Thanks,
-Yank

[bunkysdad]

Welcome to the forum yank. Yes your 43 Izhevsk has the stock stripped, possibly sanded, and refinished. That is not to say that there are no light colored russian stocks. There are. But the wood on yours is not the original finish. Ok. So it is what it is. A shooter quality milsurp rifle. Keep it and enjoy it. Heck, shoot that 33 Tula also. If you think you are gonna wear it out forget that. You can't likely wear it out in your lifetime if you take care of it, clean it to prevent any corrosion from surplus ammo or moisture and keep it oiled. As for the rough texture on the 43, that is normal. You should post more pics, but look at other 43 or 42 wartime rifles and the texture is what they all have in common. And it does not affect quality. Don't listen to the Facebook crowd unless you want your head to explode from all the balogna.

[Yank12]

Just grabbed a few more pics:

http://imageshack.com/a/img673/6739/m6eEEt.jpg

Looks like somebody was upset the stock wobbled...

http://imageshack.com/a/img673/6778/oyfsOM.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img661/8952/QvoQQn.jpg

Definitely seen better days...

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/5200/7NxZt4.jpg

[Yank12]

Hey bunkysdad, thanks for the welcome!

I had a sneaky suspicion it was tampered with, but with it being a wartime production I wasn't sure if it looked the way it does because it was hustled through the production line quick. I can understand not throwing varnish on the stock, or refining the action, if the demand for a functioning rifle is immediate!

I ran about 40 patches through the bore (no exaggeration) and it was in OK shape... it has been counter-bored but the rifling that is left looks alright. I didn't even realize it was counter-bored when I bought it, that's how filthy it was. I hesitate to say there is "pitting" but the grooves are certainly not smooth. The lands look OK though. Its not pulling/grabbing/shredding any of the cotton patches so I think its alright. I'm glad I got it when I did - before it was too late!

Hopefully I can get 10 inches at 200 yards. I don't hunt, so as long as I can hear a steel plate ring I'll grin all the way home!

[redeuce]

Shoot some rounds through it and clean it again. Might be surprised

[racerguy00]

I would shoot both. The '33 looks like a post war refurbished rifle, so it's not 'original' in the strictest sense. You wont hurt the value by shooting it if you clean it properly after.

[WeldonHunter]

What you're seeing is the actual color of the wood that is under the reddish shellac finish on most refurbished Mosin Nagants. Looking at this rifle leads me to believe because of the rough wartime expedient machining and possibly being in a stock that had chipped and scratched shellac someone decided to make it "pretty" for what ever purposes, maybe personal preference or to help resell it. It's had someone monkeying with it for sure as evidenced by the hand guard spacers and the filing or whatever was done to the rear of the site base. Probably an attempt adjust windage for it shooting to high which most of these do because people try to site them in at ranges closer then they like. Most of these shoot high and right and will sometimes shoot better by simply putting the bayonet on while shooting. Not practical I know but it does affect POI on a lot of these rifles.

Don't try getting the bore sparkling clean. You probably won't. Most of these have micro pitting for a myriad reasons and you'll make yourself nuts trying to get super clean patches out of it. As suggested if you shoot some of these old rifles and then clean again it helps. These guys are also right about shooting the 33. Check the firing pin protrusion and headspace on these, do a once over and clean them of excess oil and grease and shoot them. They're Mosin Nagants and have been on the battlefields in one form or another at some time. You'll never put more wear on these, be harder on them then they've probably already seen and they are built to be shot.

[clayshooter2]

Non Bubba'd stocks for 91/30's can be easily found if you want to bring her back to her former glory. Yes, it will not be the stock it left the arsenal with, but refurbs were made up of mix and matched parts at the arsenal anyway. Welcome to the forum!

[clayshooter2]

It does look like someone tried to strip the bluing off the rare sight base though. Not much you can do to correct that.

[Judi and her Mosins]

I would use them for shooting, and to let someone else shoot them. Still history, take your time ask questions and get to know your Mosins. I learned so much here at the RMNF, Which by the way Welcome. What are you thinking on your next purchase ? Judi and her Mosins

[djbuck1]

Welcome.

Your sense that the rifle was altered was spot on as others have explained. There are lots of original M91/30 refurb stocks available. I suspect these are all that remain of rifles that have been disassembled with the barrels and receivers now placed in black polymer "tacticool" stocks. Usually I don't hold with trying to bring back an extensively bubba'ed rifle, but perhaps it's a matter of restoring some dignity to the weapon. I think that does you credit.

As has been said, the shades of shellac cover a very broad range (though unquestionably this rifle was stripped and sanded). I think that this color range creates a very distinctive appearance, regardless of the hue, that you will recognize immediately as you see more M91/30s. In fact, I find some of the really dark red-brown refurbs eye-pleasing. While these are rare, they do turn up. I have a couple that Ivan or Olga really seem to have taken their time with AND that survived without the dings, dents and outright gouges that we too often encounter.

Finally, I agree that you should enjoy and shoot both of your rifles. That's part of the pleasure collecting brings.

[Yank12]

Hey everyone, thanks for the responses.

On a side note I am fairly certain that my Tula did get refurbished and spent time in Ukraine. I looked up as many of the marks as I could once, I remember that was the story I was able to put together tenatively, but I don't remember the exact outcomes of all the marks. My Tula does have a force-matched buttplate and of the 2 barrel bands one has an Izhveck and the other a Tula marking leading me to believe it saw the inside of at least one armory...

Alright, I wont feel bad about running rounds through this new rifle, I MAY take the stock off and refinish it to match my other (is talk that like that accepted here???) I do have a bit of a talent for matching stain, and my father is better then me. I'll provide pics of a past gunstock project if you want proof, but even with those pics you wont believe me....

I like the gun a lot, I'm a little jealous my personally treasured Tula doesn't have the hammer and sickle like this "blondie" so to answer your question, Judi and her Mosins, I'll just have to buy until I get it right! I see no reason to buy another stock however when I can surely bring this one back. It'll never be its former glory,(original and all) but I'll stain it up pretty and afterwards drag it behind the truck for a few miles, use it to play baseball, leave it in the rain for a month, and run it while dry and maybe it'll once again take on the appearance of the warhorse it was!

Little putty little paint make the wood what it aint!

Thanks again for your help everyone. It might be a while before I make it to the range and break out the color sticks to match the stock, but I'll be sure to post a pic and let you all know how it does with this counter bore....

Cheers,
-Yank

[WeldonHunter]

Both of these rifles have been through the refurb process most likely. I see that the 33 has a more recent import mark so that makes chances fairly good it's been refurbed as 99% of the Mosin Nagants coming in now are refurbed rifles. Some are from Ukraine and some are from Molot and Tulsky. I can't see an import mark on the 43 but the pictures aren't specific enough to see it. I'll bet it has one. The rifle will also most likely shoot better with the counterbore then if it hadn't been done and is an improvement. It's done to correct worn rifling at the crown from cleaning rod wear and other damage to the end of the bore. It also isn't a negative because it's a normal part of the armory repair process. Some people don't like it but on the whole it's part of what they did to make these rifles shootable again for the next conflict and is perfectly acceptable and expected. The refurb process causes most of these rifles to be force matched in one way or another also. It's explained here. http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/ref ... index.html

[bunkysdad]

I would strongly not suggest messing with that stock on your one and only "correct"Mosin. While your refinished Mosin might look like it has pretty grain and a nice flawless refinish, that is not at all what collecting these rifles is about. That is the Facebook crowd junk I was talking about. I know there is more than oneway to look at it, but as this forum is totally and completely about preserving military surplus rifles and their history. Don't let anyone tell you that these refurbs don't have history. Serious collectors will choose a original finish over a modified finish every time. Pretty and milsurp? Nah

[Yank12]

You mean I shouldn't try to match my 43 to my 33? I should leave it stripped? I know they both have been refurbed, but I kinda doubt pulling all the varnish off was an arsenal thing, don't you? I have a feeling I was done in a garage....

[Yank12]

I'm confused, I never meant to suggest I'd make my Tula match the "beater" Izvheck I found. I was going to stain the Izvheck to look like my Tula. It'll never be original, but if I can get the color close, wouldn't that be better then leaving it the way it is?

[WeldonHunter]

He may have misunderstood what you meant. Easy to do in this thread with the references going back and forth between these two rifles. The 43 Izhevsk that has been stripped looks like some sort of project someone was working on and from looking at the pictures I can see one thing that stands out. It looks like the rear sight might even have been replaced. The blue on the barrel is way lighter than the sight itself and the retainer pin looks like it's been out recently. Might just be lighting issues. I've taken the liberty of coping that picture and posted it here just for conversation purposes. It really doesn't make much difference at this point with the stock being refinished. You might was to just leave it as it is and shoot it and enjoy it. As stated above some of these rifles come through refurbishment with shellac that's a very light color and though not as bright as what this rifle is it's very light compared to the average refurbed rifle. The top picture below is the rear sight on your 1943 and the picture below that is my very light color 1933 Tula Hex M91/30 just so you can see how light some of these were. Oh and one suggestion you might try is take pictures of the whole rifle and post them when you make a post. The specific pictures are fine of areas you want to draw attention to but seeing the whole firearm also gives it a better perspective on the whole. If you're having problems posting pictures you can either resize them to 640x800 I believe and upload them directly here. I do that sometimes but I also use Photobucket and upload the IMG links from there. Like these pictures are below. I don't think you even need to bother resizing them that way and they're in you post instead of people having to click multiple links.

Your 1943 Izhevsk



My 1933 Tula



Better lighting to show how light it is. This rifle is not refinished and has arsenal shellac on it.

[bunkysdad]

Oh yes you are correct. I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about refinishing the original refurb, which is your 33 Tula. Yes since the Izhevsk has already been refinished there would be no further harm in matching the Tula, but then again nothing gained either. Sorry about the mixup.

[Longcolt44]

Since you know, (presuming you read the forum rules), this forum is dedicated to the preservation and history of firearms we do frown on refinishing of any kind. You would be better off buying a stock off Evilbay that hasn't been messed with and replacing the '43 stock. If you need to cleanse bubba from your mind and soul, take your paint remover, your package of multi grit sandpaper, your stain, high gloss polyurethane, sticks and stuff in to your bathroom and start your dastardly deed at exactly midnight. Then after doing all the recommended things here, never ever put your art up on his forum to share with us. I just checked and there are several Mosin Nagant stocks on Evilbay at a good price as I write this.

[Yank12]

Having read the forum rules I thought that might be the case, but felt like I was on the proper side of the fence. I guess there could be a strong difference between restoration and preservation, depending on how you define them of course.... My apologies to the admins.

I noticed the difference between the color of the rear sight and the barrel too, but didn't know what to make of it. You have a talented eye, Weldonhunter, to see the pins have been removed!

No problem bunkysdad, I didn't want anyone to think I was contemplating stripping a perfectly good Tula!