I finally got one but is it real or fake?

[hammontr]

I just got my first sniper and I am not sure what to look for to determine if it is real or not any help would be appreciated.

[ffeng31]

Is this an Aim or Classic sniper? Several post's on them in the sniper section. From what I can see it's parts look authentic but there has been alot of controversy over whether or not the sum of the parts , meaning the rifle as it sits now , is an original refurb .

[hammontr]

it actually came for Southern Ohio Guns

[ffeng31]

That import mark under the handguard says "Molot" to me. Does it have the number etched into the receiver at the rear of the bolt? If it's a Molot you will be hard pressed to get a solid yes on authenticity around here. Suffice it to say the jury is still out . On other forums these rifles are more readily accepted as originals. While the parts appear to be correct it is these rifles origins that are questioned. There is just no hard paper trail as to where they came from...

[WeldonHunter]

WaffSchu as it's stamped is Waffen Schumacher GmbH and is a Molot Partner in Germany. http://molot.biz/product-e/partners.php You find them in the Partners list when you click on the Partners section on Molot's Russian site. Where these rifles are coming from and what condition they are in when Molot or it's partners get them is still truely unknown.

[hammontr]

I don't see any kind of etched but here are some pics of the back of the receiver

[WeldonHunter]

The Waffen Schumacher rifles don't have the same markings as the ones from Molot but they are a Molot partner. To answer your question, because of the connection to Molot and because we don't know where these rifles are coming from we can't tell you if it's an authentic PU sniper. The parts might be correct but because Molot isn't saying if they are putting these together with parts, getting them from someone that did or that they came from a military storage facility out of storage aready fully assembled we don't know for sure. For a PU sniper to be concidered historically correct it has to have come from a military arsenal the last time it was assembled. That would be during the Russian refurb process, most likely in the Ukraine when it was under Russian control. No one knows for sure where these rifles are coming from and if they were pieced together by a commercial entity instead of a government sponsored arsenal.

[vincentvangerven]

I just got my first sniper and I am not sure what to look for to determine if it is real or not any help would be appreciated.

Now you got me curious, did you get that ATI rifle from this site?

http://www.southernohiogun.com/longguns ... per-1.html

for $430? If so, good deal.

[Darryl]

I just got my first sniper and I am not sure what to look for to determine if it is real or not any help would be appreciated.

Now you got me curious, did you get that ATI rifle from this site?

http://www.southernohiogun.com/longguns ... per-1.html

for $430? If so, good deal.

Doesn't SOG sell "reproductions", and not Molots? I think that is why they are so much cheaper then all the other Molots. But Not positive.

Dolk

[hammontr]

That is the site I got it from, it didn't come with any accessories not that I needed another pebble ammo pouch but a sling would have been nice. I may never know whether it’s real or fake but it shoots great and I can't wait to take it hunting.

[vincentvangerven]

hmm, interesting. On another forum there were rumors that AT sold them all to SOG since they were getting tired of us collectors asking 1000 questions.

How's the bore? Any line outs / re-stamps on the serial numbers? Did you call in to place the order or did you just order one online?

SOG typically sells reproductions, but it looks like they now actually are selling the ATI batch.

Lots of info to find on the ATI PU's via google.

[hammontr]

The bore is a little dark but has good LANs everything matches except for the floor plate. I called the order in and it took about a week to get the rifle.

[Celt]

What i can tell you with absolute certainty is that is a "real"mosin. Does that help?

[hammontr]

Sure does kinda makes me want to get another one.

[geeded]

These are currently available from SOG for $429.95. At least until they run out. I think they currently have 132 left. At that price, there will be a lot of recent buyers from other venues grumbling. Perhaps not the Rguns (although they are nearly double but I have two on order and will wait for them), but certainly any from AIM or Classic (& I have one from each).

There has been much calling and double-checking about the ATI's available and SOG has told all that call that they are indeed ATI's. Only thing they don't have are Tulas. Heck, at that price, it's almost like buying a scope and getting a rifle for free. Anyhow, I ordered a couple and told them NOT to ship if they aren't ATI's. We'll see.

OTOH, I am less repulsed by the import markings on the Molot AIM/Classic (hate the billboard), but for 2/3's the price, I'll deal.

This is just an FYI in case anyone happens to have a fistful of $100's to spare in the next week or so. Of course, YMMV.

Cheers

[neorebel]

I think the jury will be out on these rifles for a long time...it's all a paper trail that is easily faked anyway or just taking someones word. Markings, electric pencil etching...all easily faked with no way to verify anything...taking someones word or just a piece of paper saying it is real is not solid or imperical proof and would never hold up in a court of law. Think lawyer here......In law enforcement I want verifiable facts and you'll never see that with these guns.

I'm sure this will open a flood of opinions...but none of it is absolutley positively verifieable..unless it was issued to you and you kept it and brought it home. There are no records from the USSR...remember they were at war and didn't care about records when the Nazi's were breathing down their necks

Shoot it, enjoy it and don't worry about it time will tell maybe.

[desertgunner]

Ok, Gentlemen, let's bring some color into this:

If you look at the serial #, you will see some remainder of ""Red" color.
Which is stated by the floor plate (all red) .
It also bears a stamped x in a square on the barrel shank (not complete).
Together with the "WAFFschm" stamp from 2010 there is no question:
-This "RED" Mosin was reworked in Germany, at least in 2 different ways:
1. The red color was partially washed/polished of, they forgot the floorplate.
2. The condition of the barrel was upped.

In addition, using a war relic to up it to a "Hunting Rifle" forfeits any collecting value and is a re-work. The year stamp hurts me, on such a nice rifle, because that turned it into a 21st Century commercial product.

So let me try to define, what it is now:
A 2010 production sniper rifle of excellent price based on a war relic, reusing available preproduced parts to meet today's expectations! Auction sites have cheaper WINREMS scoped......

I can hear the German Hunters ....

Sorry to have to spill the wine, but using an as excellent marked relic for this purpose for me is blasphemy, kicking your own WW2 soldiers to make a Rubel, EURO or Dollar.

Gents, this rifle is NO FAKE, it is just a new hunting rifle(I call it now "green rifle", as putting it together was a green environmental achievement with hardly any pollution created) using cheap available resources to create a good and profit-carrying product.

That concludes my journey into sniper land, in 2 weeks I will open a thread on the MNF about RED Rifle history etc, , part of that will be more info about re-refurbs now coming out of Russia and Germany , of all war participants in liason with the former enemy......actually a good thing, if the background were not the destruction of historical artifacts for non-collector monetary reasons.

GN, Y'All......................I already know some are not gonna like this!

[Junk Yard Dog]

I think the jury will be out on these rifles for a long time...it's all a paper trail that is easily faked anyway or just taking someones word. Markings, electric pencil etching...all easily faked with no way to verify anything...taking someones word or just a piece of paper saying it is real is not solid or imperical proof and would never hold up in a court of law. Think lawyer here......In law enforcement I want verifiable facts and you'll never see that with these guns.

I'm sure this will open a flood of opinions...but none of it is absolutley positively verifieable..unless it was issued to you and you kept it and brought it home. There are no records from the USSR...remember they were at war and didn't care about records when the Nazi's were breathing down their necks

Shoot it, enjoy it and don't worry about it time will tell maybe.

Repressive governments keep records of everything, paranoid ones even better records. The Russians kept records of how many half eaten bodys they found dumped in Lenningrad trash piles, they kept records of every horrible act the NKVD pulled, you can bet they kept records of everything that went on in weapons production, something Stalin had a very close eye on. Problem is these records are buried in the Soviet archives within Russia, and we will never see them

[desertgunner]

Thanks, Jim, well said.....
....under Stalin most heavily, before and after heavy record keeping paranoia was normal. It was the Comm System having everyone trying to cover their butts through the ability to produce records. Their 5 year plan system hung over them like a Damocles Sword, you were doomed if you could not produce records, when the inspectors came.....and this fear was in any and all productive units everywhere.

This kind of behavior got to its worst years in WWW2, where, as a plant manager, you would find yourself in A Siberian Gulag for not having records of your poor production, for delivering false records or for not meeting production numbers. Having to rely on the Supply chain and on the skills "and wills" of your workers, as a Russian, you get inventive and huddle up with people you need. Do I need to follow this thread? NOT, it's history!!!!

.....and I repeat: The nice rifle in question IS a Mosin , it was once a WW2 historic relic, which was forfeited the moment the German company put a stamp on it. The work done on it is irrelevant, a Commercial Company put a stamp on it and thus turned it it into a commercial object, a hunting riflebased on historic artefacts...........

[Junk Yard Dog]

The Molot company is located within the Russian Federation at a facility that was once part of Izhevsk, but not the Izhevsk plant itself. Same company owns it all, not German, not Russian government either, a commercial manufacturer.