1935 Tula MO triple date (Update! Altered rifle "Faked)

[zeebill]

I too have said many times this is and has been going on for years but the argument against it was why would they go to the trouble of doing it when so little money is involved when humping a Mosin. That is a truly logical thought but the stopping point is the criminal mind is not always logical and they do it just to get over on an honest and principled person. Once you realize and accept that as being a fact you will understand why they are doing it. The answer is do your homework and once you are burned by someone quietly pass the word along to others and when they person is nailed dead to rights prosecute. Words and innuendos mean nothing you have to have the proof ready for court and then just wait and strike when the time is right. It is truly the only way to stop a career criminal small time or big time. There are many long time crooks out there operating and getting away with it for years. One comes to mind with the initials MM and they have profited by living on the edge of fraud for years and gotten away with it. There are many others some of which have many loyal customers who come to their rescue every time something is mentioned about them. So you see it is a part of life we all have to identify on our own and sometimes the hard way. Either that or we accept the crap they hand out as being true and go our merry ways living out the dream I guess? Many old time collectors I know realized years ago what is going on and have avoided their products but in public say little about them. Many people are much more open in a private message or on the phone than they would ever say online here. I have a book and live by the trusted sources on it and avoid the questionable ones like many others have for years. It has just become a way of life, you live you learn and you profit by it. The alternative is not always a pretty sight. Good Luck in the game of Life! Bill

[AJ333]

Well, there goes the neighborhood. I hope he gets his comeuppance.

I've actually been eying his website, getting ready for a purchase.

I think there's a special place in hell for this kinda thing, boiling vats of cosmoline and such.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The world of Mauser's is full of fakes, mostly of the more exotic variety's, US milsurps also, people have been stamping whatever they like on new stocks, or old ones for years. I recall the now gone Paragon Sales would stamp whatever you liked on a new M1903, or Garand stock set you bought from them, and that was 25 years ago. Fakery is as common as dirt in the art and antique furniture world. Anyone collecting Nazi items knows that reproductions are often artificially aged until they look like the real thing to the lesser trained eye. Finn mosins lend themselves less well to faking, how are you going to turn a cheap 91/30 into an M39? With the regular Soviet 91/30 it's easier. What you must look out for most of all will be M38, and M44 carbines with the SA on them, these will have the highest profit potential for a faker. Looking over my own Finn M38 I can see that I could easily build another from any of the Soviet M38's in my collection. I bought mine 26 some odd years ago now at a time when such things could be had for $40 because nobody knew or cared what it was, and fakery was reserved for deaths head marked K98k's. I would not buy one today without first a full disassembly and detailed inspection with the seller within arms reach and no money having changed hands.

Dealers are in this for the money first folks, I have known many of them and to a man they were not above improving something if it would increase the items salability and profit. Sometimes this was a little parts swapping, and other times a full refinish with some aging added to make it look antique. The ones I know, or knew wouldn't have gone so far as to stamp a rare marking on a piece, but then they likely wouldn't have owned up to that to me anyhow, but I always look for that sort of thing.

[jimpierce7]

Well crap! That is the same dude I got my most recent M27 from.

[gopedxr7]

thats sad. it really ruins the fun in collecting these rifles. i only have one M44, not a tula, nothing special. but i hope to collect others with markings to make things interesting in my collection. really spoils it if people are making fake marks

otherwise this is a really nice rifle

[fintowin]

Well crap! That is the same dude I got my most recent M27 from.

Your lucky he didn't have it MO triple dated.

[djbuck1]

While both unfortunate and reprehensible, this case of blatant fraud is probably a necessary "wake up call" for the Mosin collecting community at large. And while I agree with those who say that this has been going on for some time, what we have here is absolute proof that the fraudsters are at work on the rifles we love.

Certainly from this point on, all collectors must be far more cautious and circumspect.

My Finns will receive a careful inspection this weekend. Given when most of them were bought, and from whom they were bought, I have a high level of confidence that there has been no tampering. But now, I have to re-check. Carefully.

[AJ333]

It would be great if we could figure out a way to identify the legitimacy of stamps under microscope. Maybe someone here can point us in the right direction, or take on this project. I agree that this is a wake up call.

Here's a good article on avoiding fakes I came across in a quick search
http://www.nramuseum.org/gun-info-research/fake!.aspx

[martin08]

My Finns will receive a careful inspection this weekend. Given when most of them were bought, and from whom they were bought, I have a high level of confidence that there has been no tampering. But now, I have to re-check. Carefully.

While certainly possible, it just wouldn't add to the value of a Finn model (m24,27,28 etc.) with a fake SA stamp. The model itself denotes Finn. Stamping one with an identifiable forged die would actually detract value.

The most obvious candidate for the fake stamp is an import marked M91/30. And now, with the revelation of the actual act taking place, it has seriously degraded the value, novelty and historical significance of the capture/recapture occurrence. All of a sudden, all imported M91/30's with the SA stamp become suspect, whether rightfully or not.

The next, and perhaps the most dangerous application, is for the M38 and M44 models which don't have import marks, or have easily removed import marks. Once the fake stamps begin invading that realm, it is going sour a lot of tastes for these rarely encountered guns. And that sucks.

[AJ333]

Well, he did have a couple m38's on his website...

[bunkysdad]

Richard D. Hamilton Jr.
The Mosin Corner

2 names to be remembered. With the stroke of a low life's ball peen hammer he has ruined his reputation, and there is no way to get it back. How do you live with yourself knowing that other good folks that become your customers can only be happy when they don't know the real you. To defraud what I consider to be the greatest group of like minded people willing to do all kinds of nice things for each other to help further the collecting of history. Hell I am getting all philosophical but what I really think Richard D Hamilton Jr needs is a good old country ASS WHIPPING.

[steelbuttplate]

I'm really confused now. I'm looking at pics of two different rifles on this post, and still can't see a SA stamp on either As for the wristband question, I just checked my 30/53 MO and it has a thicker wrist than any other HEX. I compared it to a '42 Izhevsk and it's about the same, but the MO has pre war dog collar holes excutsionesers . (Smoky Mt. spelling) SBP 63 MN's

[millman]

I'm really confused now. I'm looking at pics of two different rifles on this post, and still can't see a SA stamp on either As for the wristband question, I just checked my 30/53 MO and it has a thicker wrist than any other HEX. I compared it to a '42 Izhevsk and it's about the same, but the MO has pre war dog collar holes excutsionesers . (Smoky Mt. spelling) SBP 63 MN's

This thread is a year old. That first rifle was not faked when this thread was made. It has been since. This thread was pulled up by folks looking at before pics.

[djbuck1]

My Finns will receive a careful inspection this weekend. Given when most of them were bought, and from whom they were bought, I have a high level of confidence that there has been no tampering. But now, I have to re-check. Carefully.

The most obvious candidate for the fake stamp is an import marked M91/30.

Correct, and I should have been more precise.

[qz2026]

In January I purchased a '25 Tula from him that was also SA marked. Below is the note I just sent him. Since then after seeing what he is offering, how he is describing the rifles, helter skelter pictures and what he is asking them, even at auction, has kind of turned me off - that queasy feeling... I've warned off a few buyers that have asked me questions about this company just for those feeling. Now I feel like a letter to everyone I have sold rifles to is in order. Maybe a fraud claim on GB. I don't know...

Rich,

I was just reading some very disturbing posts in the Mosin Nagant forums. This shows rifle purchased by you and then sold by you thereafter on GunBroker. The difference in the rifle when you sold it was that an [SA] stamp somehow appeared on the barrel shank when it wasn't there before.

This is very disturbing to me since not only because of potential collector and possible retail fraud but I checked through my records and found that I bought a similar rifle, [SA] stamped, from you in early January that you indicated came out of a crate that way. I took your word for this since we had discussed just this topic prior to my bidding on it.

Now, I am not so sure. I have to gather my thoughts on this and try to keep an open mind. My initial thoughts are that I am not very happy and the potential is there that this 1925 Tula is now worthless. I can't envision any proof that you could provide that it came out of a crate like that - maybe you can. But, I think that two (and there could have been more) genuine [SA] marked Russian refurbs, i.e., recaptures, coming out of one relatively small retail operation is very odd and frankly, not likely.

So, I am now pondering on what steps I should take next. I'll be in contact.

Tom

[WeldonHunter]

I'm really confused now. I'm looking at pics of two different rifles on this post, and still can't see a SA stamp on either As for the wristband question, I just checked my 30/53 MO and it has a thicker wrist than any other HEX. I compared it to a '42 Izhevsk and it's about the same, but the MO has pre war dog collar holes excutsionesers . (Smoky Mt. spelling) SBP 63 MN's

Like Millman said the original post was when the owner before this SA stamping took place happened and the second rifle in this post on the front page is one that TitaniumHammer posted during the discussion and has nothing to do with what's going on. Below is two pictures of this rifle, one without the SA and one with it. One is when the original owner, Fintowin, posted this rifle last year after purchasing it with "no" SA stamp. The other is after he sold it on Gunbroker (with no SA stamp) earlier this month to the guy that listed it 3 days after receiving it but now it has SA stamps.

This is when Fintowin owned it.


This is what it looked like when the new owner listed it on Gunbroker

[Lee-online]

I see he has a SCW mosin that someone on here is currently bidding on. I hope it is not messed with. It would be too easy to stamp made in ussr. The odd thing is he just got it (from airbornemike1508) and is now selling it, he may make $10 profit on it.

[qz2026]

In January I purchased a '25 Tula from him that was also SA marked. Below is the note I just sent him. Since then after seeing what he is offering, how he is describing the rifles, helter skelter pictures and what he is asking them, even at auction, has kind of turned me off - that queasy feeling... I've warned off a few buyers that have asked me questions about this company just for those feeling. Now I feel like a letter to everyone I have sold rifles to is in order. Maybe a fraud claim on GB. I don't know...

Rich,

I was just reading some very disturbing posts in the Mosin Nagant forums. This shows rifle purchased by you and then sold by you thereafter on GunBroker. The difference in the rifle when you sold it was that an [SA] stamp somehow appeared on the barrel shank when it wasn't there before.

This is very disturbing to me since not only because of potential collector and possible retail fraud but I checked through my records and found that I bought a similar rifle, [SA] stamped, from you in early January that you indicated came out of a crate that way. I took your word for this since we had discussed just this topic prior to my bidding on it.

Now, I am not so sure. I have to gather my thoughts on this and try to keep an open mind. My initial thoughts are that I am not very happy and the potential is there that this 1925 Tula is now worthless. I can't envision any proof that you could provide that it came out of a crate like that - maybe you can. But, I think that two (and there could have been more) genuine [SA] marked Russian refurbs, i.e., recaptures, coming out of one relatively small retail operation is very odd and frankly, not likely.

So, I am now pondering on what steps I should take next. I'll be in contact.

Tom

I got a quick response. Seems there were 4 of them. I'm beginning to think he just didn't know they were bubba'd but who knows... But, it's apparent between the lines that he is spooked

Tom
I understand the rifles all from the same person.
There was 4 in total i am already buying back 1
And sending 2 replacements for the others as they were sold

I appoligize for my lack of diligence in selling the rifles..
The one you bought is the other. There is no others beside these 4

Ill refund all your money send you a rifle of what i have left , both and you can either keep it or ill pay for you to ship it back.
Just let me know what you would like to do..,

Thank you
Richard D. Hamilton Jr

[WeldonHunter]

I'm quoting this because it shows the timeline for QZ2026 to see. I'm not sure if you're talking about rifles you bought from him and him not knowing they were bubba'd but the rifle in this post was sold to him on gunbroker and he claimed he bought it from someone else weeks before. He's told at least two different stories to two different people in emails and the timeline as well as the stories don't add up. He bought this rifle from Fintowin, untouched and relisted it for sale three days after he received it with SA stamps. You be the judge.

Could he not see from the gunboards thread that everybody know he bought it from fintowin and we can see that it had no stamps when he got it??? What a moron.

We gave him the chance. But stubborn, he was.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... kery-found

Oh, well. Does anyone smell smoke?

Well here's the proof. The seller says "Martin hello good morning and thank you for the information I do see the rifle on the thread on the forum it does have the same serial number of this rifle was purchased for a local customer customer a few weeks ago he brought it back in trade on M 38 that I had that he wanted" and Fintowin says "The rifle was shipped on 3-16. Delivered on 3-20." Do the math. He's had the rifle for 5 days seeing how today is the 25th not weeks. He put it up on gunbroker "Start 3/23/2015 10:39:28 AM ET" That's not a few weeks ago. I guess this guy has no idea just how tight the collecting community is.

Edit: Then there's this. Walt contacted him and this was his response.
W. Miller

This rifle was purchased from a local person last week, wanted to trade it or sell it out right..

He stated he bought it from gun broker last month but didn't want it as it is counter bored...



Looked ok to me....

Best regards,

Richard D. Hamilton JR.

THE MOSIN CORNER

[qz2026]

I'm only reporting what he said. We can all be the judge of what really happened... Either story indicates that he will be blacklisted in the community.