1903 Springfield Rifle - I AM REALLY CONFUSED!

[berkmberk1]

I just won a 1918 Springfield Armory 1903 rifle on GB. I'll let you read the email I just got from the seller - Mr. Berk
Thank you for the quick submission of forms. I must advise you that I had an ATF agent come to my shop for an audit and he told me that before I can transfer the fire arm, I must get the manufacturer, model and serial numbers "stamped or engraved" into the receiver. He let me know that even with the ATF documents showing that they had restored the markings themselves were not sufficient to meet ATF regulations for markings. I have a gunsmith on call to take care of this, but it will delay shipping of the rifle. I expect to have it taken care of within the next 5 to 7 days. I apologize for the delay in getting you your weapon. Please feel free to contact me with any questions you may have.

I'm not sure what is going on. I haven't paid yet, although I do not relish reneging on the sale. I thought everything was alright. For the money I bid, I'll take the hit for backing out. A person shouldn't have to ask if the factory markings have been removed!

[tjtM38]

I would be very careful of this sale. I have never heard of a 1903 Springfield that did not have a proper serial number on the receiver. It makes me think that some previous owner could have ground the original off or defaced the original serial number which would make the firearm illegal to transfer. Sounds like the dealer is trying to fix it for you, probably because he is unable to transfer it without such action, but you need to ask some additional questions regarding why this situation has gotten the ATF's attention.

[BubbaDX]

And you need to find out why this is coming out now that the auction is over. Were there pictures of the rifle posted? Were you able to examine the rifle before bidding?

[berkmberk1]

I rechecked the photos I do have, and even considering the poor quality, the markings are there, they appear worn, but there. I don't know what the problem is. Restoring the letters and numbers = OK. stamping or electro penciling something on it = NO GO. I'll take the hit and not pay if necessary. I feel like an idiot for not asking , even though I did ask about other, more routine problems. I don't think anyone should have to ASK about something like this. If it is a BATF Red flag issue, the seller should be honor bound to plainly state so.

[boltaction]

Hello, Aren't the stampings they require on the receiver just forward of the breach??? Like all 03s and 03-a3s. If not who removed them?? Or, why did they have to restamp them?. Didn't they show pics of the receiver markings?, so you knew that you were biding on??. Good luck, dealing with the Feds on this one. Maybe you should back out of this one, What else isn't correct?? Some times, a good deal isn't all it's made out to be. As a side note, I've got two Remington 03-a3s. Maybe, you could talk me out of one of them. Both are 42 receivers with 43 barrels, in the 4100000 series, non referbed, still in the blue.. no parkinizing on bolts or hardware, but for the receiver, like they came from the Remington factory.

[berkmberk1]

I don't usually divulge prices but in this case I will in order to get some feedback on what people think it SHOULD be worth. Like I said, its a Springfield Armory 1903, comfortably in the 800,000 range, good wood, good metal, good bore, nothing major wrong with it. From what I SEE it would be VG. I won at $775. I've seen lesser units go usually for more, better units MUCH more. $700-$900 seems to be the average I've run across for a shootable rifle in this type of condition. But with Bubba'd markings that have gotten the Feds attention, I'm figuring less than $500 considering anything other than a professional restoration of the original stamps make this a "Shooter" only. Am I far wrong?

[berkmberk1]

I did ask about one pic that showed some "substance" on the receiver bridge. He explained that the Feds were called in to check this one (they are a pawn shop). He said everything checked out OK, and the stuff on the receiver cleaned off well, leaving only minor discoloration after being oiled. Like I said, the markings are observable in the picture that I have, so I didn't really think any more of it. I Googled them, and nothing shouted "HEY". They have as much experience/feedback as I have - not a lot, but its all good. Is it possible that this BATF Auditor he is talking about may be expressing HIS opinion???

[berkmberk1]

I appreciate the offer Boltaction, but I'm collecting WW1 now.......this 1903 was my best bet for the price at the time.......all the others were much more, or in the low number "suspect" zone, and considering I fire my pieces, I avoid those.

[boltaction]

Hello again, No, your not far wrong. Not all metal stamps are the same. What's this rifles receiver going to look like??? After his gunsmith is done with it?? This isn't a Mosin Nagant we're talking about... I'd back out, it's not your fault the rifle has to be Bubba'ed again.. It's The sellers problem. Plus I'd stay away from someone that had "All" the correct stamps.... may be a low ser# rifle. Just, my own opinion on this one.

[Junk Yard Dog]

I would have told him to get stuffed right then and there. This rifle had altered markings? Value just dropped into the crapper, no US milsurp collector would pay near top dollar for a M1903 with altered markings, not that I can fathom why they would be altered unless this rifle is not legit. There have been M1903's cobbled together using cheap investment cast receivers in years past. Good enough for a movie prop but I wouldn't fire one on a dare. Drop this one, it screams trouble, you already have an out with the auction house, you will not be receiving the goods you won in the exact condition they were in before the auction ended. I have no idea what screwball crap is going on with the seller but don't walk away, run!

[Jbob]

I agree, I'd drop it. Not being correct it should be half price, you'll find a better deal down the road later.

[berkmberk1]

I reviewed our correspondence and I did ask him about the issue specifically. He stated that there were some questions about the SN and the BATF checked it out. They ran tests and concluded the SN was legit. He assured me it had a clean bill of health and the Feds, "restored" (so to speak) the markings. He claims to have paperwork to that effect. Thats why I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Now, however, we're talking marking up the piece even more! Plus, he said it would take about a week for his gunsmith to do the job and have it ready to ship. I sent him a message tonight asking for a clear pic of the receiver, a clear explanation, and a clear assessment of whether his smith can properly restamp the figures or are we looking at a total mess. I will give him the benefit of the doubt again since no money has changed hands yet. (big) IF the job can somehow be carried off - OK. If not, I'll take it for a BIG discount. If not- no deal. Not only do I have to be concerned with it's intrinsic value, I have to be concerned about if and when I decide to offload it.

[Longcolt44]

His whole story is BS to me. If the rifle in question was not up to standards he would have gotten a write up from the ATF. Remarking or putting serial numbers on a firearm is a violation in itself. You are, in my opinion, looking for trouble.

[Junk Yard Dog]

Uncle Sam did not scrub markings off of US service rifles, not now, and not back before WW2 when US M1903's were still the primary service rifle. The only US service rifles I ever saw with scrubbed US markings were some 1917 Enfields brought in from China more than 20 years ago and even these did not have scrubbed serial numbers. If this was brought back into the US as an import from one of our lend lease allies and they took the markings off then it would be import marked like any Mosin refurb, and a serial number would have been incorporated into the import marking as was done with many Mosins. There is no reasonable excuse why the rifles markings or serial number are defaced unless done by Bubba for reasons unknown. Or someone restamped one of the commercial receivers to pass it off as a real M1903.

[desdem12]

Possible stolen rifle. Changing serials and then getting rid of it. Sounds like a complete bull story.

[boltaction]

Hello, Berkmberk1, I have to hand it to you for hanging in there with this issue.. But, If I understand your last post, The feds ok'ed the sn, Then why the re-stamp?. As you now know, pics can be deceiving. Have the seller ship COD. You look over the rifle, and if it's not what you want; send it back. Or have him send pics and decide then. This could give you the better deal option, you spoke of. Sounds like you want (this rifle). So, Good Luck. My thoughts and good wishes are with you. As you ,I try to give ,the benefit of dought . I hope it works out for you. BOLT ACTION.

[bunkysdad]

I would suggest dropping the talk of giving them the benefit if the doubt, asking for more pictures, or taking it at a deep discount and heed all of the advice above and start looking for another rifle. And not even look back.

[berkmberk1]

Once again you guys are absolutely right! I feel sort of bad that I'm not "working it out" with the seller, but all in all its a bad deal. No matter what, I would not get what I bargained for, nor would I get it when I should. I could see the five days to a week for the 'smith taking two weeks to a month. So, I'm putting my 100% rep on the line and sending him this -

Hi Byron,

After talking it over with some collector colleagues of mine tonight, I am going to have to decline to complete the deal. I really, truly hate to do this, for I really wanted the gun, but I did not bargain for a situation where the item is not only not ready to be shipped upon payment, but it also isn't able to be legally sold until it's condition is marked up/marred even more than originally offered. I was willing to take it as-is before the new BATF revelation. Now, with their new requirement, the rifle has probably lost at least 40% of it's value to me.

My suggestion to you is to get it "legal", so to speak, ready to ship, and offer it to the next highest bidder, or re-post it. I would agree to no negative feedback in exchange for no negative feedback, or none at all.

With all regards,

Michael D. Berk

[berkmberk1]

I like sounding out ideas with people......many times things make more sense when you get different viewpoints. Thanks guys

Mike

[JER]

I believe everyone, at some time in their collecting "life" has been burned by a deal gone wrong... I had an 1853 Enfield musket passed off to me as "all original", but had been bored out to a smoothbore shotgun, a "fowler", if you will. etc. etc. I am glad you pulled out of this one... sheesh what an all-timer...