Reloading Mosin w/ ~.314 bore

[FineRedMist]

I'm the worst kind: I'm pretty new to my Mosin, brand new to reloading, and trying to combine the two already. Before I've even gotten all my equipment together for reloading 7.62x54r I've gotten concerned about the suitability of easily available jacketed bullets for my rifle. I slugged the bore and it read ~.314 in one direction and ~.315 in the other. (I may slug it again with a slightly tighter, more flattened egg sinker, just to be sure of the measurement.) Everything I've read suggests that, in a jacketed bullet, I'd want to run a .314 bullet to match or get very slightly under the groove diameter. Sadly, I'm not aware of any readily available jacketed ammo in .314.

I've seen suggestions about sizing down oversized jacketed bullets, but I don't find any more bullets in .315-.318 than I do in .313-.314, so that doesn't seem like an answer. I've heard of folks using paper patches to build up commonly available .308-.312 bullets, either jacketed or cast, with or without sizing after patching. And, finally, cast bullets can be loaded, and the conventional wisdom seems to be to run bullets ~.001-002 greater than groove diameter. The concern with loading cast bullets in rifles seems to be concern about excessive lead fouling at full-power velocities, which for our Mosins is, what, 2300-2900 fps? Lead fouling with these high-speed loads sounds like it can be mitigated with paper patching or some of the powder coating solutions I've read about, as well as just loading lighter to keep velocities under ~2000 fps.

Does it sound like I have the basic facts down?

So, given the facts -- loose bore Mosin, current availability of reloading supplies, and new reloader -- what do you folks think is my best course of action? My preference is for a full-power type load, though I don't necessarily need to seek max loads and max velocity. Accuracy at range distances -- 100-200 yards -- is most important, along with cost.

Scenarios I'm considering:
- Buy Hornady .312 jacketed bullets and hope for the best.
- Buy cast bullets in something like .315-.316 (if that's available) and research low-velocity loads
- Buy cast bullets in something like .314 and try one of the powder coating ideas that's out there to coat the bullets (polyester jacketing, basically) and rely on that to bring the diameter up to .315-.316. (Or, once they're coated, do you treat them like a normal jacketed round and match them to the groove diameter...in the above scenario, coat them and then size back down to .314?)

Any other ideas? Thanks in advance!


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[FineRedMist]

And one quick follow-up item:

No matter which solution I pick above, the .308 collet in the Lee neck sizing die isn't going to work. If I end up going for something more in the .314+ range, am I going to have to find a machine shop that can make me a replacement collet or mandrel or whatever it's called?


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[bunkysdad]

I think, but not positive, that the Lee collet die in 7.5 Swiss is commonly used to get a neck size only resizing to occomodate bullets of about .312? Now the first thing I would want to know is if the .314 size you came up with was accurate. So I think you are right on with doing another bore slugging. Are you greasing your slug as you push it through the bore? I think that is mostly to make it easier to get through the barrel.
The second thing I would want to know is how the rifle shoots at 100 yards with surplus ammo, and then with factory ammo. I think you already know how it does with commercial. What about surplus?
If your bore is in fact. 314" then I would order a box of. 314 cast bullets from Beartooth bullets, and I will order either 1 or 2 boxes with you to combine shipping if that helps. Although you might need a lead bullet of .315 or even .316 I don't know of anyone who has them. Jacketed bullets are not even available in. 314 that I know of. Worst case scenario would be to send a bullet to Lee and have then make the bullet mold for you for whatever their fee is. Before I did all that I would be looking for another rifle myself. A Finn M39. as for taking the bullets that you have and powder coating them I think you would just have to experiment and come up with your own finding. I may be a little different, but I have had days of shooting that left my target looking like I was practicing with 12 GA buckshot, and I was just as happy as I would have been if I had shot one ragged hole. I try to always have fun, and never leave the range irritated. Even though I do reload I do it for the fun of it, the relaxation of it, and the cost savings. Not for accuracy necessarily. If I want to shoot for tight group sizes that I can cover with a quarter, it will not be with a 91/30 Mosin, I would be searching for a Swedish Mauser in 6.5 or the Swiss K31 in 7.5, or the Finn M39, m28/30, m28, or m27. I am in no way diminishing your nice hex receiver Mosin Randy. I have seen it and it is one fine looking rifle. Now if I stumbled onto a 91/30 that could shoot that tight I would be surprised if it was not a Finn. Heck I have a Non-refurb Tula SA stamped 91/30 that thought shot well, but I have only taken it out twice. I have another really nice Finn Izhevsk 91/30 and I have not even shot it. I don't know why I haven't. I just haven't but I am planning too. When I bought it I was interested in the bolt, because it is blued, and the rifle still had the arsenal hang tag. The blueing looks close to new, and the stock is a one piece Russian, but is pine tar finished, or whatever finish they actually used. Heck it might be a track driver and I wouldn't even know. Crazy huh?

[millman]

Hey Russell. The Swiss round uses a .308 bullet.

[bunkysdad]

Oh yeah. That is correct. Now I remember. Kari was using the 7.5 Swiss Lee collet die for his .308 bullet loads for his Finn .308 rounds in his m28 or 28/30 because Lee doesnt make a collet die for 7.62x54r

[FineRedMist]

Russell, don't get me wrong: I'm not expecting to get sub-MOA performance out of this thing no matter what I do. But I would like to get it consistently on the paper. I would think that 4-5" at 100 yards would be fun and attainable.

I'm looking at Western Bullet for .316 cast bullets.


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[bunkysdad]

Yes that is reasonable. I do think that when we place a big poster board behind the targets it will give some valuable info. I wish the weather wasn't calling for rain all weekend. Western bullets? Have not heard of them but I need to check them out.

[bunkysdad]

Here is a quick video that I found interesting.
http://youtu.be/jt3DajCdk-o

[FineRedMist]

Gah...I'm gonna wind up casting bullets from a custom mold before I ever fire a reloaded round out of this thing! Lol


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[romantic1]

Oh yeah. That is correct. Now I remember. Kari was using the 7.5 Swiss Lee collet die for his .308 bullet loads for his Finn .308 rounds in his m28 or 28/30 because Lee doesnt make a collet die for 7.62x54r

Look here.
http://leeprecision.com/search.php?mode ... rtdescr=on

[bunkysdad]

Hey I found a place that sells bullet molds on Ebay that go as large as .315 and.316. The 316" bullet mold Casts 4 bullets that weight 218 grains

[res45]

Scenarios I'm considering:
- Buy Hornady .312 jacketed bullets and hope for the best.
- Buy cast bullets in something like .315-.316 (if that's available) and research low-velocity loads
- Buy cast bullets in something like .314 and try one of the powder coating ideas that's out there to coat the bullets (polyester jacketing, basically) and rely on that to bring the diameter up to .315-.316. (Or, once they're coated, do you treat them like a normal jacketed round and match them to the groove diameter...in the above scenario, coat them and then size back down to .314?)

You need to know three measurements before you buy bullets in either cast or jacketed. You need to know both the land to land dia. as well as the groove to groove dia. and lastly you need to know the inside case neck dia. from a once fired piece of brass you plan to reload for that rifle. It does no real good to buy the correct dia. bullets you need if they want chamber when loaded.

From the inside case neck dia. measurement you can determine just how large of a bullet you can actually chamber ideally it should be larger than the groove dia. of your bore,if not your going to have to either turn the case neck to allow for larger dia. bullet or just stick with the largest dia. Jacketed bullet you can get.

Assuming your bore is .314" the .312" dia. J bullets in the 170 to 180 gr. range with a long bearing surface should work fine although you may suffer a slight loss in velocity. My Mosin and SKS rifles all have .312" groove bores the Mosin actually shoot the .311" dia. J bullets best while the SKS rifle like the .310" dia. J bullet on the cast bullet side all the rifles shoot very accurately with .314" dia. cast bullets.

If casting your own for this rifle is in the future NOE makes quiet a few different .316" dia. bullet molds,provided your rifle will chamber that large a bullet http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php? ... livh122s40

NOE also make drop in neck expander plugs simular to the Lyman M dies that fit the Lee Universal Expanding die to expand the case neck to the proper dia. for loading cast lead bullets. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php? ... livh122s40

Worst case is you can only shoot the larger dia. .312" dia. J bullet but if there accurate enough for your purposes that would be great.

[FineRedMist]

Ok...I definitely have fire formed brass I can measure. So, inside diameter? I'll check that and post soon. Thanks very much for the info.


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[Outpost75]

To determine the correct bullet diameter for a rifle, the groove diameter of the barrel is NOT the determinant.

INSTEAD you want to measure the "ball seat" or "throat," which is the unrifled portion ahead of the case mouth, before the rifling starts.

The easiest way to do this is from an upset pure lead throat slug.

If you forget all you ever read about slugging barrels and simply measure chambers from now on, and make bullets to FIT THE THROAT you will be far happier in the long run.

Another limiting factor in determining correct bullet diameter is neck clearance. So you must also measure the neck diameter of the chamber on a chamber cast or check dummy cartridges assembled with bullets of different sized diameters, marking the case neck with Dychem or a felt tip marker, then chambering and extracting it while carefully feeling for resistance. The loaded cartridge neck diameter must not be larger than 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber cast at that point, to ensure safe expansion for bullet release.

A typical .30-'06 SAAMI chamber minimum chamber neck is 0.340". Typical case mouth wall thickness of commercial '06 brass is 0.013," so .340" minus twice neck thickness (0.026") = .314", minus 0.0015 for safe expansion = .3125" max. bullet! IF your throat casts that large. (Hint - if the rifle has been shot alot, it probably does!).

The .340 neck diameter is also typical of WW2-era WW2 91/30s I have measured, with ball seat or throat diameters typically .313-.314.

My Tikka M24 rifle has a tighter .337 neck, .310 throat with bore diameter .2995 and groove .3085.

My Sako M28/30 Civil Guards rifle has a .339 neck and .312 throat with bore diameter .3005 and groove .3095.

My Tikka 1968 arsenal rework M39 rifle has a .343 neck and .314 throat with bore diameter .301 and groove .3125

My best loads use the NOE #314299 cast of wheelweights and lubricated with LSStuff 45-45-10 and loaded wither with 8.5 grains of Bullseye or 13 grains of #2400, no gascheck required. Bullets sized to throat diameter. No filler is required with the Bullseye loads. I don't use a filler with #2400 because I position the charge to the rear of the case before firing. If unable to do this use a SMALL 1.0 grain tuft of Dacron tucked loosely into the case so that its final position is determined by the seated bullet.

At 200 yards I gascheck the bullets and increase the charge to 16 grains of Alliant #2400.

At 300 metres I use 30 grains of either IMR4064, RL15 or Varget with the same bullets and use a 1.0 grain tuft of Dacron fiber tucked loosely into the case so that its final position is determined by the seated bullet. Charges are measured with a Culver converted Lyman 55.

My match loads use Norma cases and Federal 210M primers. I neck size cases which have been fire-formed to the rifle, using a Neil Jones neck sizing die, with appropriate ring to size for the bullet diameter needed for the individual rifle. Bullet seating is done with a Wilson type seater using a hand armor press.

Bullets are cast of a blend using one 5-lb. ingot of Roto Metals Linotype to approximately 15 pounds of wheelweights.

Expected grouping is two inches for ten shots at 100 yards, with iron sights off sandbags, under 5 inches at 200 yards and under 20 cm (about 8") at 300 metres.

[FineRedMist]

That's a lot of (seemingly very good!) information for a novice to digest. I'll start by asking: Does all of what you said about choosing bullet diameter based on throat diameter apply only to cast ammo? How does one choose the best jacketed bullet? Thanks,


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[Outpost75]

That's a lot of (seemingly very good!) information for a novice to digest. I'll start by asking: Does all of what you said about choosing bullet diameter based on throat diameter apply only to cast ammo? How does one choose the best jacketed bullet? Thanks,
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That is a fair question.

Lapua, Sako and Norma used to sell match bullets in different diameters to fit variations in barrels and to compensate for barrel wear. This has always been common European practice for 300 metre shooting, Only the .308 and .309 D46 bullets were sold in the US and are no longer available.

In the US we are more limited in jacketed bullet selection, but choices are better now than they were many years ago.

Sierra makes a truly excellent 174-grain Matchking BTHP bullet in .311 diameter for the 7.62x54R and .303 British.

Hornady and Speer make .312 diameter hunting bullets for use in the .303 British which can be safely used in the 7.62x54R in rifles having groove diameters of .310" or larger.

The Remington 180-grain 180-grain softpoint CoreLokt and similar Winchester Power-Point bullets are .310 diameter, have soft jackets and can be safely used in rifles having groove diameters of .309" or larger.

The imported PPU "D" ball type bullets I have tested in my rifles are not match grade and shoot no better than WW2 ball ammunition.

If the very best accuracy is the goal the Sierra .308" diameter 175-grain Matchking which is loaded in the M118LR sniper ammunition should be loaded for rifles having barrel groove diameters up to .309"

The 174-grain .311" diameter Sierra MK can be loaded CAUTIOUSLY in barrels of .309-.310" diameter as long as you back off 10% maximum loads and cast the chamber to ensure safe neck clearance. A charge of 40 grains of IMR4064, RL15 or Varget is a safe starting load in Norma cases with Federal 210 or Winchester WLR primers.

In the Finn M39 and others with larger groove diameters a charge of 44 grains of the above powders approximates the velocity of match ammunition used in Europe for 300 metre shooting. Military loads were loaded to higher velocity, but I do not recommend increasing charges above this level without benefit of pressure tested data.

I do not trust predictions from QuickLoad and similar computer programs, having been "bit" by them before.