SVT 40 US import opportunity

[DanBlue]

Well Dan, if this does go through as I mentioned before I work for a large firearms and ammo and related items seller. If you want to sell them all at one time and not do the retail end I know where you can go. Stay safe.

Thank you for that Longcolt44...I'm really going to fight to get somewhere with this...Look, a lot of folks are afraid to deal with these Federal agencies..they can be intimidating, but I'm so used to going to my local FAA office and pushing on them for interpretation, or to approve some new OPSEC for our operation..sometimes we do have to lead these FAA guys to water..it's amazing to people on the outside looking in..There is always a lot of head scratching going on at the FAA but we are friends with the guys, and it's really just a game...We have every right as US citizens to find those ways to make the laws work for us...If we could interpret the tax code for instance with the skill of seasoned tax attorney, none of us would pay the amount of income taxes we currently pay. I'm confident I can navigate this one...I might get nothing but "no" with the first few tries, but I'll keep trying.....

[DanBlue]

If you guys want to make this a collaborative effort, lets split up this US Code 922..Take some time if you can and see if anything creative jumps out at you...we need a loophole located, and this document will be the place to find it.

A little light reading for you guys! http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

[OLD OUTLAW]

This US Code 922 may be the death nail to the SVT 40 import dream...I've got to read through this whole thing and find the legal loophole...In these situations, you've got to think outside of the box!

A lot of Eastern European imports of lets say an Ak Type of one or the other. Have to be torn apart and have a certain number of US made parts installed. Some have to have the receiver torch cut into two or three pieces and and then sold as a kit
for user to rebuild himself. Many have a US barrel and a US receiver. Plus even more pieces have to be US made. Lot of combinations depending on the rifle and whom made it. Century builds a lot of rifles from Europe that have been rendered de-milled before they even arrive here. I doubt any of these big importers would give you any advice though.

But you are correct about 922 being a problem. It is for many gun owners who own even an SKS that is already here. If say you had an SKS and wanted to Bubba it by putting on some other Bubba stock. When you do that ,you have to go the complete 922 route by replacing a number of other parts with US made ones. And it is then no longer a C&R rifle. And I am willing to bet you would have to do this on those SVT-40. At least before they were sold. If it were easy to do, our big importers would be buying the crap out of those rifles. It just seems like there is some thing wrong with this picture. I will almost bet those guns are sitting in an ex-Soviet Union country. The entire European Union bans any of the semi auto military surplus to be exported. In fact, I think they destroyed all old soviet weapons in the last decade or two.
Right now, and have been for a long time, Nato is destroying all they can find in European countries. Like Bosnia, Croatia,
Kosovo, etc. Belarus probably has more old Soviet weapons of all types from WWII than most countries put together.
They have more old Soviet Arms Depots there than anyone does. When Russia lost Belarus, those weapons were all left there. They are on the World's list of bad guys! Landlocked country so getting anything across others borders is doubtful.
But they have a past record of trying it. Just be sure this is not one of those "Nigerian Prince" type deals. You send them money, you get nothing sort of thing. I hope you can find a way, but can't hold my breath either. Good luck though.

[DanBlue]

Thanks Old Outlaw you certainly know your stuff! The guns are in a Western European country from a qualified source according to my boss..in the business we're in, the "Nigerian Prince" crap does cross our desk on occasion, and we smell that type of stuff very, very quickly..

It's funny, because the ATF Officer brought up the fact of Chinese rifles today, and how they could only be imported (or sold in the US rather) after those US parts were added..etc..etc..I immediately asked him about the original unmolested Chinese SKS I just had delivered to my door after submitting my C&R to Classic Firearms back in October...this early Sino-Soviet SKS isn't even listed in my C&R booklet!!! I got one of those "head scratching moments" from him when I asked about that deal...Look, I see it with the FAA all the time..The Farmingdale FAA FSDO office might say to an aircraft operator "The FSDO in Morristown allowed that?? OK, well I guess it's fine..carry on" Same hold true with the various Customs and Boarder Protection offices...(Always pal really nice with the Newark CBP btw)

You brought up a point that I was making to my fiance earlier tonight..historically, the "big importers are only interested in the big score" huge shipments of rifles...Big red waving flags..All hands on deck!!!! Well, perhaps with a little creativity, and trying to find a loophole for a few guns here and there legally imported it can be done...It's a case of not seeing the forrest for the trees I believe...I've just got to find a way to perhaps "piecemeal" the deal in a strictly C&R way maybe...

See below...just need to find what constitutes "Other exempt Purchaser"

Q: May semiautomatic assault weapons, which have been classified as curios or relics, be imported?
Not unless they are being imported for sale to a government agency or law enforcement officer employed by such agency for official use. Because ATF will not approve an importation that would place the importer in violation of the law, ATF would not authorize the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons, even if classified as curios or relics, unless the importer provided evidence that the weapons were being imported for sale to a governmental entity or other exempt purchaser.

[OLD OUTLAW]

Yes, there is that. Many have brought this up in what they read. But this is a written law/rule etc. Every day Politics can and does all the time even over rule this. Now, the M1's I mentioned. From what ever country they may be in. Here is a perfect example of and is your "exempt purchaser." The CMP!

Our Presidents keep signing their Executive Orders to ban all kinds of guns and also any gun from many countries. You will not find that written in one set of rules. They change for the worst far too often. Not just Clinton or Obama either. Bush did it to us also. You will have to find all the past and present import and agreements between countries. Plus read the 1968 and 199? what ever it was ban laws also. All will apply. I don't know enough about their wording to help you.

Now, Western European? That gives you precisely no where to start from. You need to know definitively what country they are in and who you are dealing with. Period! You need a copy of their Gov. approval to export and their in country license. You need to know their intended routing, what countries they go through, and their licenses to do so. Since you do not personally know whom you are dealing with, then you must go there and talk to them and Gov officials. Ypou also will need to spend a lot of time their inspecting an awfully lot of rifles crate by crate or one by one. I know most of the Canadian Importers have to do this. Every shipment, including all documents are inspected before money changes hands.
Talk to Sergie up at West Rifle in Canada. I bet he may tell you a bit about buying guns like these over seas. But also be certain to have someone whom is fluent in their local language with you.

I seriously doubt there is any country in Western Europe that has these. Those are European Union and Nato countries and these are banned from ever coming here through Arms Agreements. If they are really in one of those, I bet it would take illegal gun running to get them. Perhaps those guys are in Western Europe, but I bet the guns are in Eastern Europe physically. Besides Belarus, there is Moldavia and the Ukraine. I doubt Romania or Bulgaria would let any go because they are following US and in country rules so far as I am aware. Ukraine is so large it falls into both East and West Europe classification. And they are gun runners ever since they left the former Soviet Union. Vast stores of Russian weapons were taken over by them and they have been selling to a lot of conflict areas. They went against the US and Nato in Montenegro
and a number of Islamic countries as far as Arms were concerned. Once you find out exactly who you are dealing with and where, is again the first thing to do. You really need legal help also from an experienced law firm who deals in this stuff.
Just like the big importers here have. You simply cannot do it yourself. Even if you find a way, you will not get them to this country any where at the price the Canadian Importers get. Being small and new, I would almost bet every one of those 1000 rifles will cost you after ALL expenses a good $1000 or more each. That's million to start with. I know I don't have it to risk. Nor I think any financial institution loan on it. Basically why only the big guys have survived and all the others went broke I suspect.

[DanBlue]

Thanks again for the details Old Outlaw! I promise we are not lost on the many difficult aspects of this potential deal...We are ignorant of quite a few details, but we're not lost on how to make cogs operate in tandem once we have a clear picture of the possibilities to receive the import approval from ATF..nothing else matters, and no steps will be taken until we find out if we can import...If we find that we can receive an import permit, our next step will likely be to enlist a known importer OR get our own Type 8...all while we dig into the cosmetics of the deal for the guns...just not thinking about the other stuff since the focus is on the import approval at present....

To be frank with you, our concern is a clean purchase and a legal importation into the US...period...If shipping manifests have the green light and export paperwork is approved by the time the money goes hard and we're ready to go, then that is fine with us...as long as everything is "sterile" by the time we walk into the deal..fine.

We will certainly arrange the purchase with a surety bond, criteria to be met contractually i.e. condition of the firearms is just one element I can think of...and at any time before any agreed deposits "go hard" we will have our ducks in a row, and human beings or security "boots" on the ground...I do not know anything about my boss's contact, but we don't associate with knucklehead a matures..I promise you.

One idea I did have was to set up a non profit to purchase these types of rifles as to keep them from going into conflict areas of the worl, and donating a majority of the proceeds to victims of these conflicts...what do you think? Certainly could get support from the countries of the world and the UN, because a good amount of these guns are C&R and are much safer in the hands (and gun safes) of American collectors and not in the hands of small children around the third world countries...

What is fascinating to me is your knowledge of the Political Geography....where did you pick up this expertise?

[OLD OUTLAW]

Life long study of Politics concerning guns and World History. I also used to be an exporter of certain construction materials
to China. I have had to go through a lot of red tape to ship certain items. Using an import/export company is far the easier way to go if you could find ones that will do a gun shipment. Most will exclude them in a contract. The first trip over, I found
a company that represented many countries and companies shipping to and from there. They weeded out real fast a few inquiries I had from there. They had all the ethical companies inquiring on file and their financials.

Once I got over there and spent time with the buyers, I was able to find out whom they were in real life business. Where there money came from etc. Made life much easier later on.

[DanBlue]

So the STV 40 is not an assault rifle..it is classified as a battle rifle not unlike the 91/30

The SVT 40 does have a detachable mag and a bayonet lug, but does not have any other "assault rifle" components...the muzzle brake is a muzzle brake, not a flash suppressor.

Below list of WW2 era "assault rifles" .I don't see the SVT 40 listed here....why? Because it isn't an assault rifle....just working my case for my face to face meeting next week..

Maschinenkarabiner 42 (H) and Maschinenkarabiner 42 (W)
Machinenpistole 43 (MP43)
Sturmgewehr-44 - German-made; the world's third assault rifle. A popular weapon of the Nazis, but not the primary weapon.
StG 45
Wimmersperg Spz-kr

[zx9rt1]

If you can pulls this off I would like to get in on it.

[DanBlue]

Walked through everything with our aviation attorney today, and he was able to reach Michael Cooney at the FTA Import Branch..The 3 of us conferenced, and this deal is a non starter unfortunately..It goes back to the Voluntary Restraining Agreement that is still in effect with Russia..The SVT isn't listed as an importable weapon, so you can not import it period...the 5 years or more parked in another country has no bearing on the ability to import a Russian made rifle that is not listed on VRA as acceptable.

I brought up the Chinese SKS import deal, and China is not a proscribed country, but we do have an arms embargo with them....Since they type 53 SKS guns were parked in Albania for so many years and the guns are over 50 years old, the ATF deemed them importable...Amazing right? Michael Cooney was involved in approving that Chinese SKS deal...Michael said that those Chinese SKS rifles had been in Albania since the early 1960s, and that's why they allowed them in...Although the The Chinese SKS isn't listed in our C&R booklet, it does fall under the C&R guidelines since it's over 50 years old....

So clearly the Russian VRA allows NO latitude..they play by the book with that deal...

I don't intend to cast aspersions on any importer or exporter, but that paperwork or providence sounds a little interesting to me..paperwork showing that the rifles were in Albania since the early 1960s??

Thanks for everyone's continued support, but it just isn't going to happen at this time....

[Junk Yard Dog]

It was more than paperwork, many of the rifles had carvings in the stocks done by the soldiers, various clues in the carvings pointed to Eastern Europe. Too bad it didn't work out.

[OLD OUTLAW]

Yep, like I said, the Political Agreements. This is why we cannot have semi-auto Russians. That agreement always kills every thing. Bet Customs takes a hard look on any further imports of these Chinese like you bought. Bet there won't be a bunch of Russian rifles get in the next time. Even if someone changes the Russian Receiver cover to a Chinese one. Feds I'll bet are already waiting since they have read so much on all Boards about the "Sneak Russians" that came in mixed with the supposed all Chinese.

[gurn]

To bad. Was fun while it lasted.

[DanBlue]

You guys need to sit back and read this one......It will make your head spin....

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... 316?page=7

[Sonny]

To bad. Was fun while it lasted.

Yes indeed it is to bad because those SVT's are a hoot to shoot..

[jeremyb]

I've always wanted one.

[Gsragtop]

Ok just spit balling hear...but your looking at this all wrong. No way no how can you import a Russian military surplus rifle from Russia. However, a Russian "hunting rifle", that's a different situation. That president has already been set by Molot who imports m91/30, not as 91/30's, but as "ko 91/30" which is a "hunting rifle" and not a mil surp rifle.. Everything Molot does is so that they can exploit a loop hole allowing Russia to sell us "hunting rifles".. That's your loop hole, at least that's my best guess as someone who knows little of ATF law. If I'm right though I expect an SVT

I used to be a used car dealer, and I can't tell you how many times one dmv office has told me "hell no", while the next dmv office process the paperwork with no issues. Just saying sometimes its who you talk to that determines your answer.

[DanBlue]

Below is the approved list from the VRA we have with Russia adopted in 1996....You can import these Russian firearms legally into the US..The 91/30, M38 and M44 are all on the approved list. The SVT 40 is not.

ANNEX A

Firearms Permitted to Be Imported into the United States from the Russian Federation

Pistols/Revolvers

1. German Model P08 Pistol

2. IZH 34M, .22 caliber Target Pistol

3. IZH 3 5M, .22 caliber Target Pistol

4. Mauser Model 1896 Pistol

5. MC-57-1 Pistol

6. MC-1-5 Pistol

7. Polish Vis Model 35 Pistol

8. Soviet Nagant Revolver

9. TOZ 35,.22 caliber Target Pistol

Rifles

1. BARS-4 Bolt Action Carbine

2. Biathlon Target Rifle, .22LR caliber

3. British Enfield Rifle

4. CM2,.22 caliber Target Rifle (also known as SM2,.22 caliber)

5. German Model 98K Rifle

6. German Model G41 Rifle

7. German Model G43 Rifle

8. IZH-94

9. LOS-7 Bolt Action Rifle

10. MC-7-07

11. MC-18-3

12. MC-19-07

13. MC-105-01

14. MC-112-02

15. MC-113-02

16. MC-115-1

17. MC-125/127

18. MC-126

19. MC-128

20. Saiga Rifle

21. Soviet Model 38 Carbine

22. Soviet Model 44 Carbine

23. Soviet Model 91/30 Rifle

24. TOZ 18,.22 caliber Bolt Action Rifle

25. TOZ 55

26. TOZ 78

27. Ural Target Rifle, .22LR caliber

28. VEPR Rifle

29. Winchester Model 1895, Russian Model Rifle

ANNEX B

Ammunition Prohibited from Being Imported

into the United States from the Russian Federation

1. 7.62X25mm caliber (also known as 7.63X25 mm caliber or.30 Mauser)

[Junk Yard Dog]

I wonder what they had against the .30 Mauser? It's not like broomhandle Mausers are all that common anyway. Molot has other reasons for what it does that have nothing to do with restrictions on Mosins entering the US. Restrictions within Russia, or one of the other countries they sell to, we are not their only client.

[DanBlue]

Although they approved the importation of the 91/30, M33, and M44, I'm actually surprised they approved the importation of the 7.62x54R ammo...Although the technology involved in the Mosins isn't much more advanced than what Davy Crockett used...