Bayonet serial number

[sbkittrell]

I just noticed that the serial number on the bayonet matches the rest of the SN's on my 1939 Tula, which I thought was pretty cool. Is this a common thing? I would have thought that equipment such as bayonets would have been issued separately from the rifles, but then again I am new to this and my knowledge level is way low. I also found that the bayonet is a huge pain to get on and off, even though I oiled it. Maybe I'm installing it wrong. I pushed it onto the barrel, pushed in the spring loaded plate and rotated it so the sights were clear and locked into the slot. It was next to impossible to get off, so I wrapped it in cloth and used a wrench to rotate it back so I could work it off. (Don't worry I didn't force it or damage it) Any tricks or techniques I should be aware of?

[Darryl]

Mosin refurmishment 101

These Mosins that are coming out right now are what are called "refurb'd". After WWII the soviets (at the time) decided to rework these rifles and store them just in case they might need them from say an invasion from Europe or the US. There thoughts were they would work as a secondary rifles for the common non military people. So in the 50's and in the 60's they set out to do this.

In this process, they stripped the rifles down to it's basic parts and cleaned up all the metal parts. This included removing the serial numbers from the mag plate, bolt, and butt plate and bayonet. However, for reasons unknown, this was not always done. I suspect if the rifle was in good shape, perhaps they just shellack-ed it. Or if a rifle was in good shape and all they needed to do was replace a damaged mag plate, they lined a "replacement plate" out and electro penciled or stamped the new number in.


But the vast majority of them were completely disassembled and refinished.


Now, after this process of cleaning up all the parts, and removing the numbers and bluing them, they put the rifles back together. As they did, they re stamped the new matching numbers into the bolt, mag, and butt plate as they went.

We can see this is the case by the following items

1) On original Mosins (that have not been refurb'd), the bolt numbers have the letter prefix on them. On refurbs, they don't.

2) On original rifles the fonts match the barrel shank (they were done at the same time), the refubs don't, they are a latter font of the Soviets.

3) Some bolts that have prefixes on them have mismatched fonts, so they are not original to each other.

4) You can actually see where they ground the bolt where the serial numbers are. It's hard to see sometimes, but it's there.

5) You will notice the mixed arsenal parts on these rifles. The originals did not do this, the parts came from the same arsenals (with the exception of a few rifles)

The same thing happened to the mag doors, except you see a lot more line outs and re-stamping going on there. But again, the fonts don't always match.

Most of the butt plates were renumbered for sure. Very few were lined out and re-stamped.

There are exceptions to these rules, but they are very few. There are several marks they put on the rifle to designate it as a "refurb" rifle. The classic is the square box with the diagonal line through (like a divers sign), but there are others.

This one is on wood, but you will see this one on metal also (common)



Example of a lined out mag door on a refurb



This is a strange one. This is a M44 I own that has all the original parts, yet it has this refurb mark on it.
I suspect this rifle was either still in use at the time or it was in good enough shape not to have to be reworked, and at some time found
uses and was issued (hence irs why it is worn down now).



The next two are also refurb marks found on these rifles.






So your question as to the bayonet has a little different answer. It was refurbed at the same time as the other parts. Each bayonet when it was originally made was hand fitted to each rifle and serial marked at that time.

After refurb it was stamped with new numbers with it's new rifle. These Mosins that are being imported now all come with a bayonet, the problem is, when they come in the same case with the rifles. They are wrapped up and put inside the case (with the matching rifles) but all together. When these importers sell these rifles, they don't usually match the serial numbers on the rifles to those on the bayonet. So it is not common to have a matching bayonet number, but seeing as how the numbers are "re numbered" anyway, it is less of a concern. That and most collectors really don't care that much about the bayonet.

So it is a little unusual to find a matching numbered bayonet. Perhaps in the future as the importer/sellers realize it is a good thing to match them up, they will start doing that. Some do.

Now for why it don't fit very well.......They did a lousy job of fitting it to the rifle or they might have done it before refinishing, I don't know, but it is a common problem. Be careful not to get it stuck and do damage to the barrels bluing trying to remove it. I have heard some use sand paper on a pencil and sand the inside of the bayonet to accommodate the barrel better. Do not mess with the barrel, it is much more important than the bayonet is.

Dolk

[sbkittrell]

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to pass on all that information. I came to the right place to learn. Here are a few more pictures of the markings on my Mosin. I was wondering what that mark that looked like an "H" with the middle bar slanted was. So it's a "refurb" mark? I also had missed the markings on the barrel. I guess those are the importers mark. Here's some pictures of the markings.

Importers mark?


Butt Plate



Bolt


Trigger Plate


Other marks on the side of the receiver (tang?)


Bayonet

[Darryl]

The first photo is of the importers mark. You are not allowed by US law to alter that mark.

Second photo is of the re marked serial number on the butt plate

3rd is the remarked bolt. You are lucky, it has prefix numbers on it (not rare, but not real common)

4th is the mag floor plate serial number...nice

5th photo. This is where it gets kind of dicey. I thin the circle K is a "point of aim" from the arsenal. The N I don't know. the other, I can't read.

6th is obviously the bayonet serial mark


Notice the nice finish on the barrel shank. Nice smooth machining. The Russians were not in a hurry when they made that rifle, not like later when the Germans came in and machining was less important. But each has it appeal, and it is the way it should look.

Dolk

[sbkittrell]

The first photo is of the importers mark. You are not allowed by US law to alter that mark.

Second photo is of the re marked serial number on the butt plate

3rd is the remarked bolt. You are lucky, it has frefix numbes on it (not rare, but not real common)

4th is the mag floor plate serial number...nice

5th photo. This is where it gets kind of dicy. I thin the circle K is a "point of aim" from the arsenal. The N I don't know. the other, I can't read.

6th is obviously the bayonet serial mark

Dolk

Thank you again for taking the time in pass this information on to me. I appreciate it. This is my first Mosin-Nagant. Unless I die in the next week or so, it won't be my last. This is facinating to me. And it all started innocently enough when I stumbled across a Wikipedia article on Roza Shanina.

[Darryl]

This might help the new guys also.


These marks will be higher up on the left side on a sniper or exsniper. This was done to acomodate the scope numbers that were stamped there (except on Tula's)


1 Izhevsk Arrow in Triangle (post 1928)
2 (wide a.rrow)
3 (crescent A)
4 (crescent A)
5 Year of production
6 Post WWII metal refurbishment mark
7 (n or u in square box)
7a unknown
8 (crescent n)
9 USSR Izhevsk Armory Marks
9a USSR (final black power proof mark)
10 Final black powder proof
11 unknown
12 unknown

[Darryl]

I would also say that sniper rifles were refurbished with a different set of rules. They tried to keep all the pieces of a sniper rifle together. If they didn't it would have made for a lot of work refitting the pieces back on. As the mounts are not uniform, that would have been a "big" problem and they would have had toe re drill all the holes. It is another way you can tell if an ex sniper has been "re snipered" or faked. The holes do not always line up on the mounts.

There are a lot of way to tell if a rifle was re snipered. Another one is the import make (which can not be altered by law) will sometimes be under the mount. The importers did not take that much time to remove the mounts and do that.

But snipers are an entirely different animal.

Dolk

[bunkysdad]

Sbkittrell, congrats on your first Mosin Nagant. You got a nice one, easy enough to tell from your excellent picture skills. This is a good post and with Dolk's help it is full of good basic info. Can't wait to see more posts from you and looking forward to your next rifle.

[Longcolt44]

Nice work dolk, that is one of the best explanations of markings i have ever seen.

[Rongo]

Nice work dolk, that is one of the best explanations of markings i have ever seen.

Agreed. Great explanation... That info deserves to be made into a sticky.