Non-refurbed refurb...

[qz2026]

Mosin Nagant
Russian M91/30
1930 Izhevsk
s/n 19240
Ex Dragoon (possibly) - Balkan use
Imported by: C.A.I. ST. ALB. VT.
Stock - Pre war and correct
Barrel Band Retaining Springs - Milled
Rifle Parts - All over the board

This rifle has a poorly struck Ukrainian refurbishment stamp on the barrel but nothing on the butt stock, so it appears that it was refurbished at some point in Russia. But, I don't think it is one of the hoard of refurbishments that were done after WWII that we see so many of now. I suspect this could be one of the pre war dragoon conversions. Of course with it's late date it may have been a prototype M91/30 or just an M91/30 regardless of the gap in the rear sights. I am assuming that this is a converted dragoon. Other than changing out front and rear sights, I know very little about what was actually done during these conversions. Were they refurbished at the same time including bore work, stock change-outs and refinishing? Were pinned rear sights used? This one looks to have had a red shellac finish at one point but only minor traces remain. The stock looks used and might not even be the original stock. Of interest, it also appears that this rifle spent time in the Balkans and was also refurbished by the Romanians which explains the "common" stock and the mismatched bolt. So, it is likely that the rifle has been through two refurbishments but never made it to the big party after the war - non refurbed refurb...

The bolt doesn't match the rifle but is a pre-1928 Tula bolt with some post-1928. It is smooth as silk however. On initial inspection the entire rifle looks Izhevsk including the barrel bands. After cleaning I found several Tula parts inside. Some of the bolt parts are Tula including the firing pin and firing pin guide. There are also some Tula parts in the magazine follower assembly. The rifle failed a no-go headspace check. I put another bolt head on and it is now locks up very quickly.

The bore, on initial inspection using sunlight, appears shiny and clean with strong rifling. There was some powder fowling in the barrel but that cleaned out. After cleaning, the bore looks brand new. As I indicated, it appears that this rifle spent some time in the Balkans. The rifle, however, must not have been used much based on the condition of the bore. It could very well have had some gas blow-back from the headspace issue and was put on the back burner for repairs when the war ended But it appears that the decision was made store this rifle rather than totally refurbish it. There is always the possibility that an importer or buyer changed the bolt or bolt head although I have not seen a matching bolt come out of Romania, so who knows.

The stock is well used and there are no cartouches that I could see, very reminiscent of non refurbed Mosins coming out of the Balkans. It looks to have been shellacked at one time. There are two repairs on the rifle and both look Romanian. There is a stock splice in the normal place these things are done. It does not have the multiple jagged cuts seen on Russian stocks. Nor does it have finger splices like the Finn's used. This is a semi-circular like join. I could not see the splice on the inside of the stock. Additionally, a new muzzle piece was spliced in and this looks Russian. Perhaps a Romanian repairing a poor or newly damaged Russian repair. The forestock must have been damaged again or became loose since there is a vertical support piece that was joined into the muzzle end of the stock on the left side. This reinforcement looks entirely Romanian. There is a lot going on with these repairs...

There are very interesting stampings on the receiver which originally attracted me to this rifle. One is a "44r" stamping which clearly means 1944. The other stampings (ПАМ Ь) has been speculated to mean that the rifle was some sort of training rifle but that is pure speculation and needs further research. But, if that were the case then the markings would make sense. But, a lot more research needs to be done first.

ПАМ (in CAPs) - translates to AMP (as in ampere) which means just that. Someone from the other forum corrected my Google translator (??) and said that it translates to PAM. If the second letter is capital (пАм) as it really appears, then it translates to PAM. If I translate it using small letters it becomes "memory" That could be construed to mean retaining, teaching, learning although those words have distinctly different Russian translations. It also could be an acronym. Maybe someone here has some ideas on what these markings could mean. They are very unusual and not seen by me before.

Call it what you will. To me, it's my Non-refurbed Refurb.

[Miller Tyme]

The stock repairs on the nose appear to be the type the Romanians used.

[desdem12]

Nice one qz I like it. What if the Cyrillic is not Russian then what does it translate to?

[qz2026]

Nice one qz I like it. What if the Cyrillic is not Russian then what does it translate to?

Couldn't find much. In Russian, Bulgarian, Croatian and Bosnian пАм translates to PAM or Pam. In Ukrainian it translates to Memory. In Serbian pAm. In Russian and Ukrainian пам translates to memory, Bulgarian - Pam, Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian - pam. The "ъ" translates to simply "b".

One of the guys on the other forum had a stock that was stamped exactly the same way. He felt, without anything to back it up, that it was a training stamp.

[BuckeyeSgt]

I'm not sure if it helps in your search but.....There are a couple of letters that kind of look the same. Ьь, Бб,Ъъ.

[qz2026]

Well Ted's site had a reference that I am following up with but very similar

Cyrillic letters - 2 in an oval
believed to represent a training school
M91/30 stock

[qz2026]

I'm not sure if it helps in your search but.....There are a couple of letters that kind of look the same. Ьь, Бб,Ъъ.

Thanks, I don't think that character matters much. One translates out to a "b" and the other an "s".

[Junk Yard Dog]

Soviet post WW2 military aid rifle sent to one or another of the balkan nations and ended up in Romania before it was sold here back in the 90's. These rifles were refurbished by the Soviuets after ww2 just like all the familiar red shellac refurbs, but was then sent back out into the world instead of being stored away. I have 15 0r 16 of these 91/30's, many have similar stock repairs, but what none of them have is any sort of stock finish. That seems to be a hallmark of these rifles, mine plus the 50-100 others like it belonging to others that I have seen. I am going to guess that this rifle had a finish applied to it on this side of the pond.

[Junk Yard Dog]

[Gsragtop]

YOU, YOUR the one who pulled the BIN !!!! I was going to pull it !!!! LOL I'm just glad it went to a fellow forum member

Congrats !!

[qz2026]

YOU, YOUR the one who pulled the BIN !!!! I was going to pull it !!!! LOL I'm just glad it went to a fellow forum member

Congrats !!

I saw it early and thought about it for about 5 minutes and then pulled the trigger. I knew it wouldn't last very long for the price and it's uniqueness.

[Gsragtop]

YOU, YOUR the one who pulled the BIN !!!! I was going to pull it !!!! LOL I'm just glad it went to a fellow forum member

Congrats !!

I saw it early and thought about it for about 5 minutes and then pulled the trigger. I knew it wouldn't last very long for the price and it's uniqueness.

I saw it the night before, and wanted to ask a fellow forum memeber for his thoughts. Then I decided to sleep on it and woke up it was still there, almost pulled the BIN got distracted and it was gone shortly after.

Completely my fault, like I said I'm just gals it went to someone who gets what it is.

[bunkysdad]

That is just one more lesson learned for you guys who like to ask opinions, and think about it, then sleep on it, and think about it, then eat breakfast, read the newspaper, drink coffee, then think about it. Then decide what you knew all along. You decide you want it. Too late! Oh well, at least it went to a fellow forum member. Yeah right!

Nice 91/30 qz!

[no4shot]

That is just one more lesson learned for you guys who like to ask opinions, and think about it, then sleep on it, and think about it, then eat breakfast, read the newspaper, drink coffee, then think about it. Then decide what you knew all along. You decide you want it. Too late! Oh well, at least it went to a fellow forum member. Yeah right!

Nice 91/30 qz!

describes me to a T. Usually its because I feel uninformed. For instance.... went to a gun show last weekend saw a mosin. Looked rough and the bore was so bad that the rifling was about gone. The guy wanted 80 for it. The only reason I was considering it was it had a made in ussr stamped 4 times on the receiver. Thought it was neat but didn't know what it meant. I do now. Going back the next time with cash in hand. The reason I passed is one of my rules of my collection is it must be a good shooter, but if it is there next time I will forgo that rule.

[qz2026]

That is just one more lesson learned for you guys who like to ask opinions, and think about it, then sleep on it, and think about it, then eat breakfast, read the newspaper, drink coffee, then think about it. Then decide what you knew all along. You decide you want it. Too late! Oh well, at least it went to a fellow forum member. Yeah right!

Nice 91/30 qz!

describes me to a T. Usually its because I feel uninformed. For instance.... went to a gun show last weekend saw a mosin. Looked rough and the bore was so bad that the rifling was about gone. The guy wanted 80 for it. The only reason I was considering it was it had a made in ussr stamped 4 times on the receiver. Thought it was neat but didn't know what it meant. I do now. Going back the next time with cash in hand. The reason I passed is one of my rules of my collection is it must be a good shooter, but if it is there next time I will forgo that rule.

There's an SCW without the receiver markings out there right now or recently sold for over $500. Just maybe your rifle will be at the next gun show. $80 If it's still there it means no one has yet to figure out what it is. Maybe you can haggle it cheaper. After all the bore is a sewer pipe right?

[Gsragtop]

That is just one more lesson learned for you guys who like to ask opinions, and think about it, then sleep on it, and think about it, then eat breakfast, read the newspaper, drink coffee, then think about it. Then decide what you knew all along. You decide you want it. Too late! Oh well, at least it went to a fellow forum member. Yeah right!

Nice 91/30 qz!

Would you like some more salt to pour into my wound???

[bunkysdad]

Oh man, i wasn't being very sensitive. You'll get the next one and I'll be cheering for you.

[Lotema]

That's a pretty interesting rifle qz! That's got all sorts of things going on with it, I like it!

[Horilka]

Bring back this thread.. here's ПАМ 13 on my Romanian VZ24

[qz2026]

OK, that makes sense. Since I posted this I, indeed, found out what NAM meant - It is an abbreviation for "Field Artillery Workshop". The "b" is a Cyrillic character used to "soften" a word or phrase or feminize the word. I was fairly convinced at the time and am even more so now, that this rifle was imported from Romania along with thousands of others. Perhaps even used there.

Полевой артиллерии Магазин - Field Artillery Shop - ПАМ

What the "P" signifies is beyond me - perhaps some location identification or department ID...