Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

"Collectors Forum" - All Mosin Nagant are discussed here. Also the Russian and "Finnish capture" SVT38 and SVT40. This is an excellent place for new Mosin owners to ask questions. We have some of the best experts here looking forward to your questions. If you post a Mosin sniper rifle here, we may or may not move it to the sniper forum.

Preservation forum, please no altered military surplus rifles or discussions on altering in this forum. No sportsters. Please read the rules at the top of each forum
User avatar
martin08
Posts: 2614
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:39 am

Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by martin08 »

I have read snippets of the following information on a few European web pages, but this is the first time I have ever had access to the entire subsection of the of the book which covers subject of the Polish wz. 91/98/25, or Mosin Nagant which was converted to accept the 8mm Mauser cartidge.

The direct translation is a little sketchy in places, but the general information can easily be followed. My own interpretations (in parenthesis) could be subject to error, but are made as educated guesses.

A very interesting note. This is the first time I have accessed any information on this particular conversion that mentions the use of Russian Mosin Nagant 1907 Carbine as one of the models used as a base for the build.
Polish Construction of Small Arms

by Zbigniew Gwozdz an Poitr Zarzaycki

Chapter 11 - p.144 Modified Mosin wz. 1891

Pattern Rifles. 91/98/23 and 91/98/25


To consolidate the weapons and ammunition in the 1923-1927 portion of the resource owned by the Russian army, Karabina Mosina was adapted in Central Depot Weapons # 1 Warsaw, and Factory Equipment and Weapons Arma "Lwow to 7.92 mm Mauser ammunition.

Karbin Russian construction S.I. Mosina was introduced in 1891 to arm the Russian army. It had the barrel of caliber 7.62 mm and was constructed to the ammunition of the protruding rimmed flange. Additional bolt handle stem constituted a castle (lug?). Power charger to the weapons followed with a single-row boxed magazine. The magazine was located a special funnel-ejector that lasted loosely top cartridges and cartridge was holding tight recumbent, as a result of the reported device worked very well. The whole Karabina consisted of 42 parts, made Karabina in the normal production of a small amount of defects.

Weapon produced from several varieties, mainly as kb mod. 1891, and KBK mod. 1907, from factories in Tula, Sestorecku, Izhevsk and during World War I in the United States, in the sophisticated Remington, and factories in the New England.

Adaptation of weapons made Karabiner in Poland, depended, among other, the alteration of Karabina for KBK, i.e. shortened barrel by about 20 cm. The armories also made to the Karabiner the following changes:

1. Re-drilled barrel threaded for (8mm) rifling, while the front part of the barrel to the ring base was stepped down on the outside, while the shape of the barrel chambered for KBK mod. In 1898 ammunition. In case of the significant barrel wear, mentioned the new production replacement, which was provided by Armoury no. 2.

2. The receiver was converted forehead lock (lug?), stripper clips, guides the back end

3. The rear sight leaf frame straightened, headband slider the bent, steps down base for about five. After this operation, the number of targeted was not taken into account s, while range functions of the numbers were then placed on the stairs (the lowest setting 300m, 1200m highest).

4. Changed distributor ( interruptor? ) ejector cartridges (bolt head was also altered to accommodate rimless cartridge)

5. Magazine box reshaped dimensionally to filter to 7.92mm rounds

6. But also reduced stock inletting to accomodate, a (separate) part from the trough was adapted to the (shorter) external shape of the barrel (and inserted) here, in connection with the assembly screw front and back, then shortened by about 4mm. Front ferrule part from the front nosecap were replaced with bayonet base, and the base kozlikiem Koźlik. This allows for the use of the bayonet-type knife Polish production or German.

7. In addition, the esker and the flask was added an additional guarding stirrup attachment sling (new sling swivel attachments?)

Part of these changes to the cause and the need to adapt to the different elements of weapons in shape scales of the Mauser cartridge, which does not have a protruding flange of Russian cartridge: Original viewfinder also adapted to the Polish ballistics.

Weapon in this release and sign were renumbered to mod. 91/98/23. (In the literature can often encounter sources named as Polish Mauser mod. 91/98/23).

In later alterations KBK made Karabina slight changes of eliminating Koźlik and change the front bayonet lug to Mauser mod 1898. And to cut off the hook for the introduction of rod cleaning rod. Weapon studied in affiliated, from which also drive troop remarks on KBK jams, especially with in feeding the rimless cartridge and removing the spent shell. As a result of these observations was rebuilt and lowered ejection cartridge tackle.

Rifles with the introduced with the new modifications were 91/98/25 (some source and reported as 91/98/26). Rifles mod. 91/98/23 and 91/98/25 have issued to troops in armed cavalry, artillery, military police, and from 1929 to troops arming of border guards. In addition, this finding were weapons in the delivery of the State Police.

After the withdrawal of weapons from above. Troops of military handed over some to the Battalions of National Defence.
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
User avatar
martin08
Posts: 2614
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:39 am

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by martin08 »

Now, my recent acquisition. My first complete Polish Mosin Nagant wz.91/98/25

Not quite perfect, as sometimes one needs to accept some compromise on old, rebuilt, and scarce specimens. The bolt has been blued, and is not matching (but matches itself). And the magazine and rear sight leaf are from other carbines, but correct in design application.

My other two specimens have cut down or new construction sporter stocks. So, it's nice to have one with a complete and matching furniture set.

LOTS of pics. And thanks for looking.


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
User avatar
neal45
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:49 pm
Location: South metro Atlanta

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by neal45 »

That is a very nice carbine and a great photo presentation.

Congratulations and thanks for the added information.
racerguy00
Posts: 3123
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:53 pm
Location: Western PA

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by racerguy00 »

Even better than I imagined it would be. Great info too. Showcase for sure!
On Facebook? Check out the non-sporter preservationist group at: OOOPS. Deleted by Facebook because it's evil to even discuss collectible firearms on social media these days.
User avatar
desdem12
Posts: 16839
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:51 pm
Location: Eastern Washington

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by desdem12 »

Very nice. WOW :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool:
The commerce which maybe carried on with the people inhabiting the line you will pursue renders a knowledge of these people important ~Thomas Jefferson~ (to- Lewis and Clark)
User avatar
redspoon
Posts: 1764
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:56 pm

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by redspoon »

Excellent Martin :Drool1: very nice find. What really jumped out at first glance was the mauser front band and bayonet lug. Have you seen the type of bayonet that would have been used on this rifle? Again, congrats on a very nice rifle.
TulaTom
Posts: 1394
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:48 pm

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by TulaTom »

What a find! :Drool1: You must have one of the top 5 Mosin collections in the US by now. Very nice. :thumbsup:
zeebill
Posts: 5715
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Hills of WV

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by zeebill »

redspoon wrote:Excellent Martin :Drool1: very nice find. What really jumped out at first glance was the mauser front band and bayonet lug. Have you seen the type of bayonet that would have been used on this rifle? Again, congrats on a very nice rifle.

Very similar to the Siminov Trials rifles in that mauser band and bayonet mounting. I can not help with the bayonet type as I have never seen one. Bill :o
racerguy00
Posts: 3123
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:53 pm
Location: Western PA

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by racerguy00 »

I've wondered a lot about the '07 carbine receivers. It's too bad therecisn't a known receiver mark that would identify them. They had to have bern recycled into just about every other model mosin out there. I also didn't realize that these Polish rifles could have a Spanish connection.
On Facebook? Check out the non-sporter preservationist group at: OOOPS. Deleted by Facebook because it's evil to even discuss collectible firearms on social media these days.
User avatar
Rongo
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6555
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Variable in my specific position of physical space

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by Rongo »

racerguy00 wrote:Even better than I imagined it would be. Great info too. Showcase for sure!
Man, he hasn't even asked to post it there yet!!!! But if he doesn't I would be very tempted to do it for him. :twisted:

Great find! :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool:
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it". Mark Twain

"Dang that entropy"
User avatar
martin08
Posts: 2614
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:39 am

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by martin08 »

racerguy00 wrote:I've wondered a lot about the '07 carbine receivers. It's too bad therecisn't a known receiver mark that would identify them. They had to have bern recycled into just about every other model mosin out there. I also didn't realize that these Polish rifles could have a Spanish connection.

With roughly 160,000 fewer 1907 Carbines built than the next lowest production quantity (Chatellerault), the model is already scarce. Add the factor of their issuance during the heavy demands of WWI, and attrition takes many more out of service.

And though it is unknown how many would have been converted in Poland, any amount of 1907 receivers used would have diluted the inventory even further.
Rongo wrote:
racerguy00 wrote:Even better than I imagined it would be. Great info too. Showcase for sure!
Man, he hasn't even asked to post it there yet!!!! But if he doesn't I would be very tempted to do it for him. :twisted:

Great find! :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool:
I can make up a very complete model comparison between the 7.62X54r and 7.92X57 features, and then I'll present a showcase submission. It will have much of the information presented in the following quote.
The 1920's spawned the desire in Poland to consolidate munitions, and a good number of the captured Tzarist era M91's were converted from 7.62X54 to the German 8mm round - 7.92X57. The results were designated as the wz. 91/98/23, wz. 91/98/25, and wz. 91/98/26 Mosin Nagants. The 91 referring to the Mosin M91, the 98 for the Mauser K98, and the 23, 25, and 26 as the production year. Known armories were located in Radom and Polish occupied Lwow. Acutal bore diameters were stamped on the barrel shank, and Polish eagles were the usual distinct markings.

In general, they featured a shortened rechambered 8mm barrel, modified magazines and rear sights, a new bolt head to accommodate the rimless cartridge, redesigned interrupter and ejector (late versions), and stock changes to augment inletting for the smaller chamber. The forend was shortened and fitted to accept the Mauser bayonet lug and barrel band on the '25 and 26's. Sling attachments varied significantly from rear lower and/or side K98 or wz. 29 Mauser swivels with plugged slots, or open sling slots with wire hangers - front attachment points varied as well with many combinations of plugged or open slots, wire hangers and some with wz. 29 front bands with swivels. Upper handguards were generally shortened from M91's.

The converted Mosins were commonly described as second line small arms in cavalry and infantry units, but these were also issued in lesser numbers to the Polish State Police, Forest Service and Border Guards. Sources point to approximately 70,000 to 77,000 units were produced in the three production years. In the mid 1930's, Poland eventually phased out the firearm. Some (approx 3,000) were sold to Spain for the Civil War, others to Yugoslavia, and by 1939, the inventory in Poland was said to be 1 unit. Remaining units worldwide are unknown, with very few 23's. The most common is the '25, and these are the usual specimens found - with some sources calling them 26's if exhibiting the upgraded interrupter/ejector combination.

Now, a few months ago, I spied a forlorn looking chopped down Mosin at a gunshow. It didn't sell, but the markings piqued my curiosity and I went to the gunshop the following week and walked out with the home-sporterized unit for $90. Later that day, I discovered that I had purchased a Polish wz 91/98/25 (26?).

Image
Image

This one is built on a 1917 Izhevesk receiver, completely matching and serialed in many places, bored at 7.95mm, and produced at Arma Lwow.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

I forgot to picture the matching numbered bolt body and buttplate... oops!


The most significant differences to an M91 design can be seen here:

The shorter barrel is stepped, and the chamber/shank is much smaller. Wood is added and inletted in the stock to accomodate. The front sight base is pinned in place.

Image
Image
Image
Image



The receiver is modified to reduce the height of the stripper clip guides and place them rearward to accept the 8mm round. The two piece interrupter and ejector are separately attached with mounting screws.

Image
Image
Image
Image



The bolt head, extractor and guide rod were modified for the rimless round and for feeding clearance.

Image
Image
Image


The trigger guard/mag body was widened to the shoulder length of the 8mm round. And the feed ramp was widened and sloped at a lower feed angle.

Image
Image


The rear sight leaf was flattened, and the base was ground to calibrate for the differing ballistics.

Image
Image



Though my gun's stock is unfortunately sporterized (I suspect it was an early Interarmco import), here is a typical Mauser bayonet lug with an atypical front barrel band/handuard set up.

Image


Polish Eagles and another interesting mark.

Image
Image
Image
Image


No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
User avatar
Junk Yard Dog
Owner/Founder
Owner/Founder
Posts: 48730
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:54 pm
Location: New York

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by Junk Yard Dog »

Excellent information and rifle, it reminds me more than a little bit of some of the creations the Turks came up with. :)
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
qz2026
Posts: 4170
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:54 am
Location: Nothern Lower Michigan

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by qz2026 »

:Drool1: :Drool1: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool:

I love that "shortie" M91 handguard and the nosecap :vcool: :vcool: :vcool:
Three_Dogs
Posts: 1380
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:40 pm
Location: Middle, Tennessee

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by Three_Dogs »

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: WOW!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool: :vcool:
If corporations are people, when will we see one executed?
User avatar
Rongo
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6555
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Variable in my specific position of physical space

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by Rongo »

Now this is a very odd variation of the Mosin Nagant platform... No one can dispute that. Martin08 has compiled all of his information into one of the longest forum posts in the history of the forum. I've been working all day & am too tired right now to read the whole thing... But from what I've gone through so far has me fascinated. It is evident from the get go that this is delving into a whole different Universe than what we are used to with a standard issue rifle, Refurb, Finn, SCW & so on. All I can say is this is a stunning dedication to acquire & present a truly hard to find & intrinsic piece of History that most of us will never see in person. Matt, Thank You for your hard work & taking the time to share it with us... BRAVO!!!

Showcase Submission :udaman:
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it". Mark Twain

"Dang that entropy"
User avatar
Junk Yard Dog
Owner/Founder
Owner/Founder
Posts: 48730
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:54 pm
Location: New York

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by Junk Yard Dog »

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft.
Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
desdem12
Posts: 16839
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:51 pm
Location: Eastern Washington

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by desdem12 »

Read some more of it just now and it is very cool. What gets me is he just saunters into a store and there are these wonders of the past. I am lucky if there is a mosin ever. :roll:
The commerce which maybe carried on with the people inhabiting the line you will pursue renders a knowledge of these people important ~Thomas Jefferson~ (to- Lewis and Clark)
User avatar
martin08
Posts: 2614
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:39 am

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by martin08 »

Rongo wrote:Now this is a very odd variation of the Mosin Nagant platform... No one can dispute that. Martin08 has compiled all of his information into one of the longest forum posts in the history of the forum. I've been working all day & am too tired right now to read the whole thing... But from what I've gone through so far has me fascinated. It is evident from the get go that this is delving into a whole different Universe than what we are used to with a standard issue rifle, Refurb, Finn, SCW & so on. All I can say is this is a stunning dedication to acquire & present a truly hard to find & intrinsic piece of History that most of us will never see in person. Matt, Thank You for your hard work & taking the time to share it with us... BRAVO!!!

Showcase Submission :udaman:

You are most welcome, Rongo.

But I should be thanking YOU, the Moderators, Administrators and Members of this forum. No other place on the web affords such a handy place to Showcase special variants, than does Russian-Mosin-Nagant-Forum. Kudos to all.
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
User avatar
millman
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6348
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:52 pm
Location: KY

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by millman »

Hey Martin, I have been reading your nice post with interest. I have an M39 with a Polish marked bolt body. I have always assumed that it came from the Finnish purchase of parts from the Poles mentioned in this link. http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES1.htm We have discussed this briefly before. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=875&hilit=+m39 .
Have you in your research discovered any way to tell if my bolt body was from a Polish M91, or from one of the 8mm conversions, that the Finns may have acquired?
“Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” George Orwell, English novelist, essayist, and critic, 1903-1950

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C. S. Lewis
User avatar
martin08
Posts: 2614
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:39 am

Re: Polish Construction of Small Arms. wz.91/98/25

Post by martin08 »

millman wrote:Hey Martin, I have been reading your nice post with interest. I have an M39 with a Polish marked bolt body. I have always assumed that it came from the Finnish purchase of parts from the Poles mentioned in this link. http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/RIFLES1.htm We have discussed this briefly before. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=875&hilit=+m39 .
Have you in your research discovered any way to tell if my bolt body was from a Polish M91, or from one of the 8mm conversions, that the Finns may have acquired?
I remember seeing that. It is the only other Polish Eagle that I have ever seen on a Finn gun. And the only other time I can recall that it has surfaced since, outside of the 8mm conversions, was on a Latvian cut-down M91 with the F.L.P. Mi. stamp.

None of the later Polish refurbished M91/30's, M44's or Polish constructed M44's exhibit the eagle stamp on the bolt. And there are no discerning Polish marks that I've ever seen on an M91, of which 2900 are reported to have been sold from Poland to Finland in 1936. So your bolt body had to have come from the wz.91/98/25.

With so few of the wz.91/98/25's that are found today, either in the US or in Europe. It seems that the bulk of the 77,000 of them destroyed or decommissioned in some fashion, perhaps by parting out, and hence your bolt body made it on to an M39. Some very wide circles exist for the Mosin Nagant and its components, for sure.

I tried to post the pic of your bolt body here, but the best I can do is a direct link. Pretty clear evidence of frugal part usage.

download/file.php?id=779
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
Post Reply