Polish wz.91/98/25, Converted to 8mm Mauser

"Special", rarer, and "hard to find" Mosins

For your browsing pleasure.
Locked
User avatar
martin08
Posts: 2614
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:39 am

Polish wz.91/98/25, Converted to 8mm Mauser

Post by martin08 »

The following is a (very long) compilation of four posts, and four rifles. Hope it is informative!

Polish wz.91/98/25 Mosin Nagant

DISCLAIMER: Some specimens in this will appear that have cut down, new construction importer-built sporter stocks, reproduction stocks, or demilling - presented here on RMNF for informational purposes only, and not for promotion of sportering or altering a firearm. Once in a very great while, a very rare firearm variation is worthy of restoration for correct display purposes, to match the historical content of available literature on specifications. Such items might otherwise never be viewed in representative form, specifically due to extreme rarity. There is full disclosure of reproduction efforts, there are no attempt to deceive the reader. All changes to the furniture are completely reversible, and the original replaced parts accompany each firearm on the rack. Historical record is the topic, here, and NOT alteration. Thank you

Best regards.
Martin


Discussion Section

Preface -

I have read snippets of the following information* on a few European web pages, but this is the first time I have ever had access to the entire subsection of the of the book which covers subject of the Polish wz. 91/98/25, or Mosin Nagant which was converted to accept the German 8mm Mauser cartidge.

The direct translation is a little sketchy in places, but the general information can easily be followed. My own interpretations (in parenthesis) could be subject to error, but are made as educated guesses.

A very interesting note. This is the first time I have accessed any information on this particular conversion that mentions the use of Russian Mosin Nagant 1907 Carbine as one of the models used as a base for the build.

* Special thanks to Nagao, of C&R Arsenal, who forwarded the link for the following translation, and has a very nice summary of the Polish wz.91/98/25(23,26).

http://candrsenal.com/rifle-polish-mosi ... wz-919826/
Polish Construction of Small Arms

by Zbigniew Gwozdz an Poitr Zarzaycki

Chapter 11 - p.144 Modified Mosin wz. 1891

Pattern Rifles. 91/98/23 and 91/98/25


To consolidate the weapons and ammunition in the 1923-1927 portion of the resource owned by the Russian army, Karabina Mosina was adapted in Central Depot Weapons # 1 Warsaw, and Factory Equipment and Weapons Arma "Lwow to 7.92 mm Mauser ammunition.

Karbin Russian construction S.I. Mosina was introduced in 1891 to arm the Russian army. It had the barrel of caliber 7.62 mm and was constructed to the ammunition of the protruding rimmed flange. Additional bolt handle stem constituted a castle (lug?). Power charger to the weapons followed with a single-row boxed magazine. The magazine was located a special funnel-ejector that lasted loosely top cartridges and cartridge was holding tight recumbent, as a result of the reported device worked very well. The whole Karabina consisted of 42 parts, made Karabina in the normal production of a small amount of defects.

Weapon produced from several varieties, mainly as kb mod. 1891, and KBK mod. 1907, from factories in Tula, Sestorecku, Izhevsk and during World War I in the United States, in the sophisticated Remington, and factories in the New England.

Adaptation of weapons made Karabiner in Poland, depended, among other, the alteration of Karabina for KBK, i.e. shortened barrel by about 20 cm. The armories also made to the Karabiner the following changes:

1. Re-drilled barrel threaded for (8mm) rifling, while the front part of the barrel to the ring base was stepped down on the outside, while the shape of the barrel chambered for KBK mod. In 1898 ammunition. In case of the significant barrel wear, mentioned the new production replacement, which was provided by Armoury no. 2.

2. The receiver was converted forehead lock (lug?), stripper clips, guides the back end

3. The rear sight leaf frame straightened, headband slider the bent, steps down base for about five. After this operation, the number of targeted was not taken into account s, while range functions of the numbers were then placed on the stairs (the lowest setting 300m, 1200m highest).

4. Changed distributor ( interruptor? ) ejector cartridges (bolt head was also altered to accommodate rimless cartridge)

5. Magazine box reshaped dimensionally to filter to 7.92mm rounds

6. But also reduced stock inletting to accomodate, a (separate) part from the trough was adapted to the (shorter) external shape of the barrel (and inserted) here, in connection with the assembly screw front and back, then shortened by about 4mm. Front ferrule part from the front nosecap were replaced with bayonet base, and the base kozlikiem Koźlik. This allows for the use of the bayonet-type knife Polish production or German.

7. In addition, the esker and the flask was added an additional guarding stirrup attachment sling (new sling swivel attachments?)

Part of these changes to the cause and the need to adapt to the different elements of weapons in shape scales of the Mauser cartridge, which does not have a protruding flange of Russian cartridge: Original viewfinder also adapted to the Polish ballistics.

Weapon in this release and sign were renumbered to mod. 91/98/23. (In the literature can often encounter sources named as Polish Mauser mod. 91/98/23).

In later alterations KBK made Karabina slight changes of eliminating Koźlik and change the front bayonet lug to Mauser mod 1898. And to cut off the hook for the introduction of rod cleaning rod. Weapon studied in affiliated, from which also drive troop remarks on KBK jams, especially with in feeding the rimless cartridge and removing the spent shell. As a result of these observations was rebuilt and lowered ejection cartridge tackle.

Rifles with the introduced with the new modifications were 91/98/25 (some source and reported as 91/98/26). Rifles mod. 91/98/23 and 91/98/25 have issued to troops in armed cavalry, artillery, military police, and from 1929 to troops arming of border guards. In addition, this finding were weapons in the delivery of the State Police.

After the withdrawal of weapons from above. Troops of military handed over some to the Battalions of National Defence.

Featured Showcase Firearm - Complete wz.91/98/25 -

Now, my recent acquisition. My first complete Polish Mosin Nagant wz.91/98/25 (also known as wz.91/98/26, for the updates to the interrupter/ejector system). Not all parts are original matching to the gun, but all parts come from the specific model.

Following the presentation of this gun, will be three others that show the unique features conversion, and comparison pictures of the alteration to a standard 7.62X54r caliber Mosin Nagant. Again, for informational and historical content only.

And the featured gun is not quite perfect, as sometimes one needs to accept some compromises on old, rebuilt, and scarce specimens. The bolt has been blued, and is not matching (but matches itself). And the magazine and rear sight leaf are from other wz.91/98/25 carbines, but correct in design application.


LOTS of pics. And thanks for looking.


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Discussion Section

Informational Posts

The 1920's spawned the desire in Poland to consolidate munitions, and a good number of the captured Tzarist era M91's were converted from 7.62X54 to the German 8mm round - 7.92X57. The results were designated as the wz. 91/98/23, wz. 91/98/25, and wz. 91/98/26 Mosin Nagants. The 91 referring to the Mosin M91, the 98 for the Mauser K98, and the 23, 25, and 26 as the production year. Known armories were located in Warsaw, Poland and Polish occupied Lwow (present day Lviv, Ukraine). Acutal bore diameters were stamped on the barrel shank, and Polish eagles were the usual distinct armorer's markings.

In general, they featured a newly manufactured, shortened and rechambered 8mm barrel, modified magazines and rear sights, a modified bolt head to accommodate the rimless cartridge, redesigned two-piece interrupter and ejector system (late versions), and stock changes to augment inletting for the smaller chamber. The fore-stock was shortened and fitted to accept the Mauser bayonet lug and front barrel band on the '25 and 26's. Sling attachments varied significantly from rear lower and/or side K98 or wz. 29 Mauser swivels with plugged slots, or open sling slots with wire hangers - front attachment points varied as well with many combinations of plugged or open slots, wire hangers and some with wz. 29 rear barrel bands with swivels. Upper handguards were generally shortened from M91's.

The converted Mosins were commonly described as second line small arms in cavalry and infantry units, but these were also issued in lesser numbers to the Polish State Police, Forest Service and Border Guards. Sources point to approximately 70,000 to 77,000 units were produced in the three production years. In the mid 1930's, Poland eventually phased out the firearm. Some (approx 3,000) were sold to Spain for the Civil War, others to Yugoslavia, and by 1939, the inventory in Poland was said to be 1 unit. Remaining units worldwide are unknown, with very few 23's. The most common is the '25, and these are the usual specimens found - with some sources calling them 26's if exhibiting the upgraded interrupter/ejector combination.

In 2011, I spied a forlorn looking chopped down Mosin at a gunshow. It didn't sell, but the markings piqued my curiosity and I went to the gunshop the following week and walked out with the home-sporterized unit for $90. Later that day, I discovered that I had purchased a Polish wz 91/98/25 (26?).

Image
Image

This one is built on a 1917 Izhevesk receiver, completely matching and serial numbered in many places, bored at 7.95mm, and produced at Arma" Lwow.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

I forgot to picture the matching numbered bolt body and buttplate... oops!


The most significant differences to an M91 design can be seen here:

The shorter barrel is stepped, and the chamber/shank is much shorter in length. Wood is added to the chamber inletting area to accomodate. The front sight base is pinned in place.

Image
Image
Image
Image



The receiver is modified to reduce the height of the stripper clip guides and place them rearward to accept the 8mm round. The two piece interrupter and ejector are separately attached with mounting screws.

Image
Image
Image
Image



The bolt head, extractor and guide rod were modified for the rimless round and for feeding clearance.

Image
Image
Image


The trigger guard/mag body was widened to the shoulder length of the 8mm round. And the feed ramp was widened and sloped at a lower feed angle.

Image
Image


The rear sight leaf was flattened, and the base was ground to calibrate for the differing ballistics.

Image
Image


Polish Eagles and another interesting mark.

Image
Image
Image
Image

Discussion Section

Good links.


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~bolas/main/uzbrojenie/karabiny/mosin.htm&ei=PPyoTb7SBZHEsAO7m7z5DA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGIQ7gEwCQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkarabinek%2B%2522mosin%2522%2B91/98/26%2BOR%2Blwow%2BOR%2B8mm%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dzwv%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Divns


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&u=http://www.poszukiwanieskarbow.com/greg/gallery/mosmaus.html&ei=-TuWTduyA9Cgtwfj-ZWADA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCwQ7gEwAjg8&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkarabinek%2B%2522mosin%2522%2Blviv%2BOR%2Blvov%2BOR%2Barma%26start%3D60%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Divns

http://www.cruffler.com/Features/FEB-02/trivia-February02.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://ejercitopolacosegundaguerramundial.blogspot.com/2010/09/armas-polacas-en-la-guerra-civil.html&ei=fIabTeU6qebSAauqtOMC&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFIQ7gEwBjgK&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkarabinek%2B%2522mosin%2522%2Barma%2BOR%2Blviv%2BOR%2B%252291%2B98%2B26%2522%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1009%26bih%3D570%26prmd%3Divns


Thanks for looking. :)

BEFORE:

A tragic sporter with a fatally cracked stock. Useless, save for the rarity.

Image
Image

Discussion Section

DURING:

Material costs, approximately $110. Nine hour labor of love.


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


AFTER:

It will always be a reproduction. There is never a true replacement for an original. But my chances of finding the real replacement parts were next to zero. So, why spend $110 on parts and a day's labor on a ratty old Mosin? These guns were only built for three years in the 1920's, and very few remain intact today.

Image
Image
Image
Image


What is it?

Polish wz. 91/98/25

It's not a Mosin Nagant, and it's not a Mauser, but it is a little of both. It began as a 1917 Izhevsk Mosin Nagant M91 Infantry riflle, Cossack, Dragoon, or M1907 Carbine. It was then converted in Poland, circa 1923-26, for the purpose of consolidating munitions. The barrel was replaced with an 8mm (7.92X57) which required alterations to the bolt, receiver, rear sight base, and magazine. A Mauser rear sling swivel, bayonet lug, cleaning rod, and front barrel band were added to the spare/spliced Mosin M91/30 stock. A broken M91 handguard was cut down to accommodate the shorter barrel. Several different stock/sling slot/swivel variations exist. There were also two other models produced, the Wz. 91/98/23 and the Wz.91/98/26, with the '23 model all but non-existent and the '26 differing only slightly from the '25

These guns were issued to the Polish Cavalry and Infantry support, Boder Patrol, and Forest Rangers from the mid 1920's through mid 1930's. But by 1936 they were phased out in favor of the Mauser. Most were sold to the Czechs or Spain during the Civil War. How the present day examples arrived in the US is not fully known, but a likely source would be through Interarmco, a firearms importer of the 1950's and 1960's. These guns are highly sought after prizes in the area of Mosin Nagant collecting. The most recent for sale at Empire Arms was not matching, and brought a cool $2850. (ref. http://7.62x54r.net/Forums/index.php?topic=10562.0)

Mine, as pictured at the top, is actually a complete matching unit. The numbers can still be read on the sanded stock. But that stock will now become an accessory. And the new stock will always be just a reproduction - but it can now be viewed as it once might have appeared. Many thanks to zeebill for supplies, Vic and Radom for suggestions and dimensional assistance.


Discussion Section

INTERARMCO SPORTER
I spotted a poorly inexed Gunbroker Auction in early 2012, and stuck it out to the end.

$245 might seem like a stretch for an apparent Bubba, but I recognized the features as a Polish Wz. 91/98/25 - and I wanted another one! Only 70,000 were converted by the Poles in the 1920's. A small cache of them were sold to the Spaniards for their Civil War, and only few of these remain intact today.

When it arrived, my first thought was that the stock needed to be ditched, but when I took a closer look I was surprised by an intriguing feature. The walnut sporter stock was made specifically for the shorter length of the converted 8mm chamber area of the barrel.

Hmm. This gun was purposefully altered for what appears to be a commercial application. Since this has no importer stamp, it is a pre-1968 offering. Interarmco and Samuel Cummings are the likely suspects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Cummings

Anyway, enought talk and speculation. I'll post a pile of pics and let you guys decide. As usual, thanks for looking.


Not a matched unit, no buttplate of course.


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image



The main donor rifle is a 1916 Tula, Izhevsk bolt, and unknown magazine with some curious welding near the hinge pin.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image



Some polish features - recalibrated and flat rear sight leaf, pinned front sight blade, stepped barrel, unique two piece interrupter/ejector, re-shaped bolt head (broken extractor), Polish numbered cocking piece (missing firing pin), widened magazine housing, and receiver milled to accept Mauser 8X57 charger clips, and feed the rimless round.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image]



The factory, ARMA" LWOW, and some more interesting stamps.

Image
Image
Image


Now, since the barrel shank is almost a half inch shorter than a standard Mosin Nagant, it's amazing how well the stock fits. Built specifically for the gun? (I think so!)

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


But being the frugal hoarder that I am, I had saved aside a stock with the wz.91/98/25 features of sling swivels, barrel bands and Mauser bayonet lug from another unusual purchase (demilled European sporter with P-14 front sight), and it dropped right in. Good or lucky? Doesn't matter.


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Enough, for now.

W.R.No1.

martin08 wrote:To begin - I made a mistake. I should have known better, as I have done it before, but it is a good lesson to revisit. As fortune would have it, the seller was more than fair, and I was out only the cost to ship it back. Again, I claim all responsibility. Out of respect, the seller should stay unnamed - even if you know who he is, please. Now, the story.

Collecting fever ran high when I discovered that a rare Mosin Nagant conversion was present at an Ohio gun show, and was still available for the taking. With some help from a Mosin hound or two, I was able to view a cell phone pic, and put a call through to the owner while he was still at the show. We quickly discussed a few details, such as the stamp on the barrel, crests, bolt head and sling swivel configuration of the stock. And at the peak of Mosin Fever, I pledged to buy the gun for what appeared to be a fair price for all involved.

Good and bad news. The good - the seller lived up to his inspection/return policy, entirely.

Now, the bad - the Polish wz.91/98/26, with its rare chambering in 7.92X57mm, is an abomination. The receiver has been demilled, the fore stock is a reproduction, the bolt and front sight are bubba'd, the butt stock is cracked at the wrist. It is also missing a crucial part in the unique interrupter/ejector system.

Can't blame anyone but myself, as I was in a trance, and bought it with only the cell phone pic and a verbal description. The seller said that he never disassembled, and I believe him. He would have noticed the major flaw right away.

Anyway, here are pics showing the flaws.

Demilled receiver. The drilled hole also starts into the barrel shank, about half way along the chamber, but does not go all the way through. An EXTREMELY dangerous condition, in my estimation.

Image
Image


Reproduction fore stock, front swivel and handguard.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Bubba'd bolt (blued/bent handle) and front sight, which should be pinned barleycorn, and not a sleeved Mauser style.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Missing 8mm-specific ejector, wrong interrupter (should be two piece).

Image


Cracked wrist.

Image


Retrofitted barrel bands.

Image
Image


Too bad, as this particular arsenal is EXTREMELY RARE. There are only a handful at best known from the W.R.No.1. arsenal (Central Depot Weapons # 1 Warsaw). Most 8mm conversions are from the ARMA" LWOW arsenal, and of the 1925 design. This one is clearly a rarer 1926 production. I offered to keep it, at a 50% refund for the historical value and the rarity of the arsenal, but the seller respectfully declined. So I opted for the full refund and sent the gun back.

Image


At a glance, this looks like a legit and very desirable piece. It also had the correct receiver alteration for the 8mm Mauser stripper clips, flattened rear sight leaf, correct trigger, an arsenal altered buttstock (though not matching number) with correct filler for the shortened barrel, proper magazine reshaping, and correct serial stamps and Polish Eagles on the barrel and bolt head.

But such a shame for the gun, itself. It's an unsafe repro. Praise for the seller who did the right thing. And dang! I should have known better not to jump before doing my homework.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Hope everyone might benefit from a collector's lesson. Thanks for looking and listening.
Discussion Section
No words of wisdom come to mind at this time....
Locked